Ever wished you could get honest about what goes wrong in interviews, building a team, or making business partnerships work? This compilation episode is basically a highlight reel of the real, messy, sometimes hilarious conversations Curt and Melody keep having about how easy it is to get hiring, boundaries, and “vision” totally wrong.. plus a cautionary tale about why you should never skip the partnership prenup.
What They Talk About:
- Curt’s framework for actually learning about a candidate during interviews—minus the cheat-sheet answers
- The story about Melody getting fired from a dog kennel (for throwing out someone’s shoes by accident) and what it taught her about boundaries
- How “caring too much” becomes a fake interview weakness and why both hosts see themselves in that
- Curt’s “never tell them your priorities up front” rule—just to see what people think success means before feeding answers
- The burnout cycle of hiring someone to do four jobs badly, then feeling like you can’t win as a small business owner
- Why having a crystal-clear business vision is both a curse and a superpower, and the mental spiral of feeling like everything’s “wrong” today until you reach it
- Melody’s disaster partnership—lawyer visits, burping, and the one contract clause you must always add: what if you just stop liking each other?
- Real talk about how purpose-driven business owners sacrifice sleep, health, and sanity for the dream… and why that has to change
Key Takeaways:
- If you lead interviews by feeding people your values, you’ll only see what they think you want.. not who they are.
- The people who get your business off the ground aren’t always the ones who can keep it growing.
- Clarity about vision matters, but sacrificing your own well-being (or family) in the name of “someday” is a recipe for regret.
- A business partnership needs an exit strategy for the “we just don’t get along” scenario.. because it happens more than you think.
- Trying to fill every “gap” alone or with scrappy hires is a guaranteed path to founder exhaustion.
Timestamps:
- 01:01 – Interview roleplay: desperate managers, fake weaknesses, chocolate-covered cherries
- 08:46 – Boundaries, peacemaking, and getting fired (and what we wish we’d done differently)
- 14:22 – Curt’s curious-interviewer framework and why he withholds “what good looks like”
- 24:14 – The pain of hiring for too many roles (and the mediocrity trap)
- 30:08 – How vision actually feels, and the misery of always feeling behind
- 36:15 – The contract clause you always forget in business partnerships
- 40:24 – Final thoughts, gratitude, and a brief plug for listener ideas
Transcript
What is up, everyone? It is Ivan, the guy usually trapped in the editing bay, taking over the mic once again. If you're wondering where Mel and Curt are, well, Mel is actually here in the Philippines right now. We got to meet up this weekend, and since she is currently halfway across the world enjoying her trip, there's no brand new episode for the hosts this week. But do not worry, I have got you covered. I have put together a special compilation episode for you today. We are diving deep into some of the rawest, most insightful conversations about building a team, surviving the exhaustion of being a CEO, and navigating the wild world of business partnerships. Let's get right into it.
Curt [:Welcome to the Soul Proprietor Podcast. I'm Curt Kempton.
Melody [:And I'm Melody Edwards.
Curt [:Each week we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.
Melody [:Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are welcome here.
Ivan [:To kick things off, we are jumping into the delicate art of the interview. Curt breaks down his personal framework for interviewing, which revolves around staying intensely curious about the candidate rather than making them feel pressured to perform. He explains why he absolutely refuses to share his main objectives for the job upfront. Preferring to see what the candidate naturally views as success without handing them the cheat sheet first.
Melody [:Hi, Curt. I'm Mel. So nice to meet you.
Curt [:Oh, good morning, Mel. It's good to be here.
Melody [:Good morning. Thank you for coming in so early. I know that that's pretty tough.
Curt [:Yeah, it's all right. I'm actually— I know it doesn't look like it right now. I just happened to be out a little late last night, but I am really a morning person.
Melody [:Just— Oh.
Curt [:Trust me on that.
Melody [:What time do you usually wake up in the morning?
Curt [:5 AM. I probably try to wake up at 5 AM most mornings.
Melody [:Yeah. That's better than me. I don't wake up at 5 AM.
Curt [:Oh yeah? Well, maybe 5:30 actually. I might wake up at 5:30.
Melody [:Okay. That's cool. Well, why don't we sit down? First of all, what led you to just to apply?
Curt [:Well, I just finished a job that things were really, really good, but I needed something I could grow more. I wanted to be able to grow more. And I just— when I read your ad, I felt like this is a place I could really grow.
Melody [:As a window cleaner?
Curt [:Yeah, exactly. And I like outdoor work.
Melody [:Oh yes, a seasonal window cleaner.
Curt [:Because you said something in the ad about how it would be able to, like, grow in a team. And I think that would be really good for me.
Melody [:Yeah, it sounds like it would be really good for you.
Curt [:Yeah.
Melody [:Especially if you're saying it like that. Well, so just tell me a little bit about maybe your past work experience. Like, what jobs have you liked that you did? By the way, this is exactly how I would be. I would just keep talking and asking more questions. So let me just say, the jobs that you did, what did you like about them? What didn't you like? You know, all that stuff.
Curt [:I have worked at landscape companies. Recently, I was working at Jack in the Box. And I really like a good challenge. You know, Jack in the Box didn't challenge me enough is what I— And I felt like when I read your ad, I liked how you used the word challenging. So yeah, I really thrive in a place where I can just be honest. I don't like drama. I really like places that don't have drama. Everybody's trying to be challenged and work hard, and I just want to put it out there.
Curt [:I really love a place I can work that allows me to be honest, and you seem like an honest person.
Melody [:So I'm really excited to like have an opportunity to maybe Yeah, I mean, I would always want everybody to be as honest as possible. What do you mean when you say honest?
Curt [:Well, I worked at places where sometimes the people you work with just aren't honest, and it's really hard to work somewhere with dishonest people.
Melody [:Like backstabbing?
Curt [:Oh, maybe. I don't really get involved in the drama of it all, right? But oh yeah.
Melody [:I can only imagine.
Curt [:Yeah, imagine it.
Melody [:Can you remember a time— like, I'm so curious because I've never really had a job other than this, so I'd love to know what What's out there in the world? Like, what kind of things have you experienced?
Curt [:Oh, the last place I worked, the boss— everyone said he did drugs, so he probably did.
Melody [:I don't know.
Curt [:I wouldn't get involved in the drama, but—
Melody [:Of course.
Ivan [:Sorry.
Curt [:I can really tell.
Melody [:This character is so fun. Yeah, you don't like drama.
Curt [:Not a big fan of drama, if I haven't mentioned that. And then another thing is like, I used to work with people, they would clock out like 5 minutes early. I saw it with my own eyes and they would tell people that they clocked out on time. And that just really, really bothered me.
Melody [:What would you say that your greatest weakness is?
Curt [:Oh, I care too much is my biggest weakness. Like, I think you probably could tell from the last story, so I care about, you know, being honest.
Melody [:Yeah, I really relate to that because that's also my greatest weakness, caring too much. And you know what? I really like you. I have a good feeling about you. I think that I want you on the team.
Curt [:That's really cool. I can't believe you didn't tell me anything else about how awesome it is to work here?
Melody [:Oh, I feel like the ad did most of the work for me.
Curt [:Yeah, I did get that from the ad.
Melody [:Yeah. As you can see, we have this great shop. So—
Curt [:As I look around here, I'm like, dang.
Melody [:And I'm giving you snacks. Like, just tell me what snacks you like and I'm gonna buy them for you.
Curt [:You'll buy me any snacks I want?
Melody [:I mean, like, for the team we do. Yeah.
Curt [:Oh, cool.
Melody [:Not like all the snacks, but whatever you want to, you know, just have around.
Curt [:Wow.
Melody [:Chocolate-covered cherries?
Curt [:Is that something that you do?
Melody [:Yeah, sure. Whatever you want. Whatever is best for you. Now, do you have any questions for me?
Curt [:I don't want to make it too awkward, but how much money will we get paid? And then like, what are the paydays?
Melody [:Okay. Well, we pay every week and I think I said $18 an hour in the ad or something. And usually after the first, we do a training month. And then after the first month, we go up a dollar an hour. If you've passed all of the things, whatever the things may be, and then you're good to go.
Curt [:Assuming you do give me the job, what would I wear?
Melody [:That's a great question. Well, I will give you $25 towards buying a nice pair of cargo pants. And then we also will give you shirts, whatever shirts and sweatshirts that you need, and a hat. Oh yeah. You don't really have to worry too much about that, but you have to kind of stick to the general uniform, even though it's not like specific, but it just, you know, you need pockets for the job. You need to represent the company well.
Curt [:So, oh, okay.
Melody [:And you need good shoes. Oh, by the way, are you afraid of heights?
Curt [:No, I'm not afraid of heights.
Melody [:I mean, it's okay if you are. You can just tell me because you like being honest, remember? And I'm here for that.
Curt [:What would happen if I did say no? I'm just curious. I'm not afraid of heights.
Melody [:I would probably just say like, Most people think they're afraid of heights, but they're really not. Only like 3% of the population actually is afraid of heights.
Curt [:Yeah, I don't think I'm afraid of heights. I'll be really good at this job. I can already tell. You said $18 an hour?
Melody [:Oh yeah.
Curt [:I'll be good at this job. I can already tell.
Melody [:Yeah, what were you making at Jack in the Box?
Curt [:Oh, it was like $7.26 an hour. But at the same time, yeah, I'll be good at this job. I can tell.
Melody [:Well, your confidence is overwhelming to me.
Curt [:Oh, thanks.
Melody [:I can just tell I believe in you. I'm going to invest my heart and soul into you being successful here.
Curt [:Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I was just curious. I have my mom's car today. I was just curious, does anybody else like carpool to work or anything like that?
Melody [:Oh, good question. Usually we would want somebody to have their own car, but also I have a good feeling about you. I'm just going to pick you up every day.
Curt [:Oh, you are?
Ivan [:Yeah.
Curt [:Oh, nice.
Melody [:Why not? If you don't have a car, like, we'll get you there.
Curt [:Sometimes I'm crashing at my friend's house and then sometimes I'll stay at my mom's house. But I can give you both addresses and you could just, I'll let you know.
Melody [:Just tell me what your schedule is and I'll work around it.
Curt [:Yeah. Just text me the night before and I'll let you know. I can respond and let you know where I'm going to be.
Melody [:Yeah. Okay. That sounds fair. And scene.
Curt [:I am having some trauma flashbacks right now.
Ivan [:Continuing the conversation on interviewing, Mel shares a highly relatable story about trying to figure out where to draw boundaries at work. She recounts getting fired from a dog kennel in high school after accidentally dropping a pair of shoes into a wastebasket. And she and Curt unpack the delicate balance between being a peacemaker and having the spine to stand up for yourself.
Melody [:Well, in the newer versions of the way that we do our funnels now, it got to the point where I was like, I know people are coming in here. They're gonna say what we wanna hear. And so I literally, in the, as they were going through the beginning of our application, I said, if you're not aligned with our values, you probably shouldn't waste your time applying. We always figure it out. And just trying to warn people like that, but looking for the red flags of like how people are not going to be aligned, but doing it in weird ways actually.
Curt [:So another thing that I think is important when you're calling out the values is to not, A, feed them to them. Now, if they find them on your website and they're a researcher, like, hey, more power to 'em. That shows they're a researcher. But I'm just gonna go ahead and put it out there right now. There's not any company values out there that say we are not hard workers, we're lazy. We are not full of integrity, we're liars. We're not smart people, we only hire dummies. Like, I don't care if you are hiring for lazy, dumb people, like, that just won't be the company value.
Curt [:So if I was to call you in and ask you what you value, There's 2 problems. The first is I could tell you what to value and then ask you if you agree, which is what I did. And then the other one is to take your values and just check what the opposite of them is and see if it makes any sense. So hungry could be a value. Someone who's hungry to learn, hungry to work, you know, right? Well, now what's the opposite of that? Someone who is just, they're already good at what they do and they're not looking to grow. So a company might be interested in someone like that. Like, so if I hire, if I'm bringing someone in, I'm like, Are you the kind of person who has already like dove deep into X and already know all that stuff? Or like, where would you say you're at in proficiency-wise? A hungry person is going to say, I'm ravenous about it. I learned a lot about it, but I'm always learning more.
Curt [:This is something I'm excited about. Right. And you can ask questions like that. The other thing is asking them what they gravitate to before you even ask the question. Like, what do you gravitate to? Why? Now you can start finding out what their values are And you can start making some judgment calls about whether that's in alignment with you or not. Yeah, I was out really late last night. Oh, why were you out really late? It sounds like it must have been fun. Yeah, me and some friends, we did an all-night video game party.
Curt [:Oh, cool. That's awesome. Are you really good at video games? Yeah, I love it. When I'm not working, I am video game. Sweet. So like professional level?
Melody [:Yeah.
Curt [:Like you train for it? No, I'm just casual, but I just love it. My buddies and I. Oh, okay. Now I can start trying to figure out, is this like something that borders the line on addiction, or is this something that is truly— tell me about hand-eye coordination or whatever, or what do you think about people who say that video games are a waste of time? What would you say to someone like that? Now you can ask questions and figure out—
Melody [:Yeah, that's true.
Curt [:They are. So that's something that I learned is that I'm not going to tell you what my values are, not until the very end, but I am going to hire on the values. I just need to figure out if you're in alignment and it's okay. That's the other thing, I just think that everyone who's good will align with my values and people who are bad— and I hired lots of good people who didn't align with values.
Ivan [:In this next segment, we shift to the trickiest part of hiring, figuring out a candidate's actual values. Curt explains why you can never just list your company values and ask someone if they agree, because obviously every applicant will just say yes. Instead, He shares his sneaky tactics for asking about their weekend habits, like an all-night video game party, to uncover what they genuinely prioritize.
Curt [:Before we were going to talk today, I made up a list of things that I actually didn't write my framework down, but I have it pretty well in my head. So I'd like to share my personal framework that I've moved to now.
Melody [:Oh, great.
Curt [:The reasons behind it. What I did jot down was a few questions that I actually do ask.
Melody [:Are you going to interview me? Are we going to talk about the framework?
Curt [:I can. What I didn't want to do is put you in a position where you do the bad interview, then I do a good interview, and then we go— which maybe mine's not even that good, but I didn't want to put it in a position where Curt did the good one and Mel did the bad one.
Melody [:I don't care. I'll try it if you want to.
Curt [:Well, let's first explain the framework that I'm going to use, and then you'll get to uncover how I'm following it. So the first part of my framework is that I don't want you to feel like you have to be a person for me. I want to know who you are. And that changes everything, right? I'm not going to lead you. I am curious. I'm going to go in as fully curious about what it is that makes you, you, and how do you view yourself, and how do you think other people view you given that you view yourself that way? So that's the first thing. The second thing is, is how good are you at this? Well, I'll leave that one obscure for now. I think the questions will sort of bring that to pass, but I want to understand what your capability is.
Curt [:And I want to understand what's your expertise, where we fall there in terms of what I'm trying to accomplish. In the first interview, I do not share my main objectives or metrics for the job. I just won't do it because you'll know too much about what I view as success, and I need to know first what you view as success. And then I need to understand a little bit more about what sorts of ways that you deal with failure. And obviously, if someone says they've never dealt with failure before, then Either you're dishonest or you're too inexperienced for me, so it's not going to work anyway. So I want to uncover all of those things, and then I'm going to introduce to you the process that we're going to go after the first interview in order to bring you on board, because we don't work with people we've never worked with before. So I'll make sure that gets explained as well. So that's pretty much what my framework is.
Curt [:Any questions about that before we get started?
Melody [:No, I like it actually. Part of the thing that I do, and it sounds like, you know, you're trying to do the same thing, is try to understand who this person is and not from their perspective of what we want to see. Especially if you're only having a little bit of time with this person, they have this one chance to make a great—
Curt [:Impression?
Melody [:Impression, yes.
Curt [:Okay, yeah.
Melody [:They have one chance to make a great impression. That's a lot of pressure for somebody, which actually I hold the weight of that. I feel like I don't want them to feel that pressure, also understanding they're going to feel it if they want the job, right?
Curt [:And that's where people like you and me, who are very compassionate for that, that's where we'll fill in all the gaps and make sure we tell them, we'll lead them with what the right answer is here so that you don't have to feel that pressure.
Melody [:I know.
Curt [:Would you like to have the answer? I'll just tell you.
Melody [:Yes. Let me just tell you what I want so that I don't feel bad that you are feeling stressed about it. But ideally, I don't even call it interviews. We have conversations with them. And I want to know things like, what do you like doing? What don't you like doing in a job? We want to match you with people who Like, we want you to be happy with the role that you get. And so even in that, it can be challenging to get people to be honest, but we ask over and over again, like, questions about themselves. So I think I totally understand and agree with what you're saying.
Curt [:Okay. Part of the discipline of what I'm going to do here is to try to ask questions that don't get me any closer to the specifics of something I want an answer to. If I start asking you questions that I know what the answer is, it needs to be, then you probably do too. And I'm also going to start getting tempted to like feed you.
Melody [:So you're really challenging yourself in these interviews too.
Curt [:I try to keep the word curious in my mind all the time. And if I keep curious on my mind, I usually do okay.
Ivan [:If you have ever been in a truly terrible job interview, this next segment is going to give you trauma flashbacks. Mel and Curt do a hilarious role play where Mel plays the most desperate hiring manager on earth, offering a wildly confident candidate everything from unlimited chocolate-covered cherries to personally picking up for work every single day.
Curt [:Oh, you toughed it out. Yeah. Even amid allergic reactions and anything else.
Melody [:I just felt like I didn't wanna let them down, you know, like, cuz they, it was actually kind of like a cool gig to have. But they hire a certain number of people and it was such a short amount of time. I would've been letting down my coworkers if I left early. So yeah. Oh. And some of my coworkers were my friends and that would've had a, they wouldn't have liked that.
Curt [:Well then let's get a different example. And I'm not saying that you've ever had to walk out of something early, but I would like to understand a bit more about where are you gonna draw that line? Because at some point, you know, you've talked to them about it and they're not willing to make concessions. Any self-respecting person has got to draw a line somewhere. Where do you draw the line?
Melody [:Well, when I was younger, I worked for a dog groomer, like a dog kennel, and they were very hard. I don't think they'd ever been bosses before. And it was really, really tough to work for them. They kind of were mean and we were just, yeah, I was kind of younger, but I was basically cleaning up after dogs and cats. So I feel like it's not a fun job necessarily. But I just, I don't feel like they ever felt I was doing good enough. And so I have to admit, I did get fired from that job.
Curt [:Tell me a little bit about— I'm not saying that we as an employer would disrespect our employees, certainly intentionally, but in a situation, if you were to give advice from the life that you've lived up to this point to the girl who worked for that dog groomer who can't control them, Sounds like you were fired, which means it was probably not on your specific terms. What advice would you give to your younger self about how to deal with these people who are obviously disrespecting you?
Melody [:Well, I didn't know that I could quit. That didn't seem like an option. And so I think now I would have been like, you don't, don't let people talk to you like that. It was very like, they'd yell at me sometimes and sometimes they would say I hadn't done something right. The reason I got fired was because I put a pair of shoes on top of a Wastebasket when I was vacuuming in a bathroom, I think, and they fell into the wastebasket, but I forgot that they were there. And so that's why I got fired. I also will say, again, I don't think they had ever been bosses before, and I was pretty young. I was still in high school, and they were kind of having to teach me how to work in a way, in the way that they wanted me to, because I'd always been working as a babysitter.
Melody [:Or positions like that in the past. So that's very different work than what they needed from me.
Curt [:In that particular job, would you be more interested in discovering and drawing out the optimal way to do the job and sort of self-lead without maybe so much harsh criticism or whatever? Or does it sound better to you to work for someone who is able to train you up exactly in the way that they expect everything to be done?
Melody [:I think it's better if they tell me what the outcome they want is. I think it's good to show me how you do something, but I think it's better if I know what the outcome is that you want, and then show me the way that you do it, but maybe give the autonomy for me to possibly figure out a better way or a way that works better for me. I will say I'm not great at following a step-by-step because that doesn't really account for a lot of the situations that actually happen. And then I end up having to ask them questions, and then they, I think, feel like they— when I've experienced that, it feels like they don't think that I'm capable because I'm asking questions, but they never told me the answers. They didn't account for certain situations.
Curt [:Yeah, that's really good to know about you. And everyone learns different ways, and everybody likes to be autonomous in certain ways. So That's really helpful for me to understand that about you. And I guess that would lead me to another question. I know some people are more confrontational where other people would really shy away from it. And maybe we'll call those people peacemakers, right? Where someone who's more confrontational, they don't mind stirring the pot and maybe they don't even do it from a place of malice by any means. But if you were giving advice to your younger self, do you think that given how you have had experience now, do you think you would advise your younger self to be more assertive and stand up for herself? Or do you think that the peacemaker, like, just let it happen, take it as long as you can, and walk away? Like, how do you feel like that should have gone?
Melody [:I don't feel like I'm a good confrontational person necessarily. Like, I don't want to have confrontation, and I don't want to like beat around the bush. I don't want people to feel like they have to walk on eggshells with me or me with them. I just like to have a pretty open relationship with people. And if I'm not doing something the way that you want me to, or if I'm not doing a good job, I'd want you to tell me, but not like yelling at me. So if I was giving myself advice when I was younger, I wouldn't say confront them. I would say, you don't have to do this anymore. You should quit, and you're not going to be a failure if you quit.
Curt [:I like that. That's great. So one of the things that we all know in life is that there's balance, right? So you don't have to be someone who flies off the handle. You also don't have to be someone who just takes it Every single time. So in order just to kind of close out this particular part of the interview that I'm so curious about right now is where on that scale does your spine, personally, because there's not a spot on the scale that's the optimal place to be, but personally, where is it where I'm going to tell you how I feel? Where does that line up against the now you're going too far kind of thing? How would you reconcile that?
Melody [:I don't think I understand the question exactly.
Curt [:Because it's coming from a place of super curiosity, I'm not even sure if I understand the exact question, but I'll give you an example. I have a son who has no problem asking for any concession whatsoever, and he's dyslexic. And so at school, he really learned that if you don't ask a teacher for a concession, you're never going to get it. But that's bled over into lots of parts of his life where I'll be standing somewhere and I'm like, wow, Guts on this kid, right? But for him, he draws the line at basically once it moves to what he perceives as disrespectful, maybe where I would draw the line more at the part where you can see that I'm beginning to get agitated, for example. So as you think about where you would stand up for yourself versus it's not worth it and that would— I would have to go too far, can you think of a way to describe maybe where that line is for you?
Melody [:I would hope that I would have the emotional intelligence to not feel like, you know, most of the time it's not myself that I would be standing up for. I don't tend to get confrontational about things. And by the way, I know I've talked a lot about jobs where I've like quit or been fired. I feel really silly now that I've done that. But I hope that it shows you, you know, I'm a very honest person. And Ultimately, like, I would— I don't want to quit jobs or get fired from jobs. I want to keep a job and I want it to be long-term. And so I would prefer to not have to have— I don't know if it's like have a line.
Melody [:It's not that. Like, I want to just be respectful and I want people to be respectful of me. And I think most employers and most companies, they're trying to do what's right for their employees.
Ivan [:Moving from hiring into the brutal reality of scaling, Curt talks about the exhaustion of being a CEO trying to wear too many hats. He breaks down the painful 45-day cycle of hiring someone for a broad, multi-role job they inevitably fail at, and discusses why the scrappy people who get your business off the ground might not be the right fit to take it to the next level.
Curt [:Here's the deal. What you just described as the CEO is exhausting, and we know that because—
Melody [:45 days. I can do it for 45 days.
Curt [:If she doesn't make it 45 days, you got to go find someone else who's willing to do sales and marketing and their heart's in it and they're ready to go. And then you got another 45 days. And look, I'm only saying these things because I have been able to tell people the right answer for all these years of like, I know the right thing to do. And then like I get into it and I'm doing it and I'm like, hey, that's supposed to be a lot easier than it is. And the fact is, is that this 45 days may end in treachery of letting someone who's perfectly awesome at sales go. But the marketing, they weren't doing the activity.
Melody [:They don't like doing it.
Curt [:They weren't doing a good job. Wasn't getting the results you needed. You had to let him go. You went and found someone else who did all the work. You brought him in 45 days later, you had to let that person go. And after 6 runs of 45 days, you're like pissed and exhausted and poor because you spent all this money. And at some point you're like, I should have just kept one that was decent. And I should have just like, I can't do this forever kind of thing.
Curt [:That's what happens when you're small. And this is what I want to say to my entrepreneur friends listening right now. When you're small and you're asking people to wear multiple hats, You're trying to get your business to a certain place. And just to like, spoiler alert, the place you're trying to get is where people are more specialized and better at their jobs and more powerful so that you can kind of start spinning on that productivity. But when you don't have enough payroll for 70 employees or, but not even 10, like really any business needs like 10 people to like run all the different responsibilities, but you can't afford 10, you can afford 2. What happens is, is that now you're asking to pay someone a meager salary for a big broad job, They only care about a certain bit of it and they're only good at a certain bit of it. And you got to train in all of it. And that's where I think the conundrum lies, where you find yourself with somebody who obviously they're not good at their job.
Curt [:Why? They got 4 jobs. They got 5 jobs.
Melody [:And I have completely agree with you. This is why I'm doing the reset. One person was doing 2 jobs and one of those jobs was completely, that was the urgent one, the account manager that comes first. And so her focus was there. Whereas the training role, that's less like, unless we're actually training people, doing the projects or putting out training courses, that can wait. And so I can't hold anybody accountable when they're doing separate, different jobs unless I separate the roles, which I did.
Curt [:That's also smart. And that's kind of part of what I was getting to is that like, when you're small, you may have to just say, this job doesn't get done in this business, but we're going to be so good at the other stuff that it's just going to have to be okay for now.
Melody [:What I'm holding them accountable is to holding themselves accountable for 45 days. That's the trick here. If they can't hold themselves accountable, people in my company who on a daily basis, they get their list done, they hold themselves accountable to the list and they don't forget the things. My whole goal for this time period is to see who is going to hold themselves accountable. I'm not going to do it unless it's during that L10 meeting.
Curt [:Well, that's the other thing, holding people accountable. Like that's not in yours or my nature anyway, which makes it tiring. And then And then when you're at the top of the food chain, like right now I have 5 people in the company that report to me. And well, holding 5 people accountable, if I was good at it, would suck. But I have 5 people that report to me: marketing, sales, customer success, development, and product. So who can I have them report to? I'm not big enough to hire another executive to have them all report to some sort of middle manager. This tenacity, it's a choice. It's probably reasonable to believe that there's a certain amount of mediocrity you're gonna have to put up with.
Curt [:I just think that's how it's gonna be at the, the early stages. But I think the goal is, is for you to change, cuz what got your business to where you're at right now probably won't get your business to where you're trying to go tomorrow. You know, and I say tomorrow.
Melody [:What got us here won't get us there. Yes.
Curt [:And that mediocrity, it's not that they're mediocre people. The kind of person that gets your business off the ground is the one who's willing to pick up anything on the ground and start running with it. And they aren't going to let perfection stand in their way. Like, I got 3 jobs to do. I don't have time to like micromanage or even spend time reflecting on how good that is. I just, I checked the box, I moved on. And I think that those people are some of the hardest workers. In fact, my experience is, is that those people will actually care about your business more than you will.
Curt [:I don't know what it is, but they're hardcore. And then you get to a point where like, I need someone who is not a fire putter outer, but they're like a laser-focused thing. Maybe not in every, because you don't have enough money to like hire all at once, but like, I need a laser-focused so-and-so. That's where it starts to become really key as you start understanding where you're at and where you're going and what's needed right this second. Because then at some point you do hire someone who is really good at this one thing. And it might mean that the super loyal, awesome person, they're just not cut out for this business anymore. I think that's where it really hurts the heart. For me, that's what's made it really hard to keep moving from layer to layer or from stage to stage is because you throw 3 or 4 layers on.
Curt [:And before you know it, your whole business has changed. And you start looking at the people who are in the business and you go, are these the right people? Like, they're so loyal. They're so good. I love 'em so much.
Ivan [:In this segment, the conversation gets real about the burden of carrying a vision. Mel describes having a business vision as something you can literally taste and feel. However, Curt offers a serious reality check, warning entrepreneurs not to push their physical health, sanity, and family to the backseat just to achieve a distant 10-year goal.
Melody [:Can I explain vision for a second? For me, I wanna know if it's the same for you. I literally have a vision in a way. It's not, it's something I can taste and feel, and I don't always know what it is or what it fully encompasses. I just know, I, and I don't even know how to explain it, but I can just, something comes into my brain and I can, once it's fully formed, because when I started Home Service VA, I did not have a vision for this company. It took me a long time. I was trying to fill a need and I was trying to start a new thing. I wanted to have an international business. It's always been on my to-do list.
Melody [:And so my checklist, and I know seriously, but once I caught the vision, which by the way, it was not much different than all the other companies that I've ever done. Like the vision tends to be very similar in many respects. But once I had it, it's like nothing can go— it's really hard to release a vision and to let something go. To let a vision go is one of the hardest things. And I don't mean like let it go like I'm a control freak and everybody must follow it like Steve said. Sometimes you have to like not even follow a vision. But that's how I feel. It's painful if I don't get to complete the thing that my mind has decided on.
Melody [:How do you explain it?
Curt [:I would probably explain it the same way. There might be a little bit of nuance difference. Pretty much the same for me.
Melody [:Like when you started ResponsiBit, was it, I mean, it was because you don't love selling things and you wanted to create a system or like a software that would help make it more automated and easier, which you did. But as you went on in the company, was your vision very clear from the start or did it develop? Like how did your vision come to light?
Curt [:Honestly, this is where I feel like a fraud. I still am not like, my vision has not come to life yet. I'm still, still working on it. But also in fairness, my vision is so many, there's so many folds to it, right? Financially, what I want my business to do. There's culture within internal team workings of what I want my business to do. There's product, what I want my business to do. And I want it to do it now, by the way. That's the other problem with vision.
Curt [:I'm looking way down the road and I'm measuring what we're doing right now today by that. We're wrong. Like everything's wrong. Everybody, you all are way underperforming. Yeah, Curt, obviously. Like, and the problem with vision is that it can come fast. 5 minutes from now, I could really articulate to you in just a couple sentences this amazing vision. Imagine that we are the gold standard in CRMs.
Curt [:Like you could say something like, we're the gold standard in CRMs. I could say that, but becoming a CRM is a big job. And then if you want to be the gold standard of CRMs, it's also another 10x, 20x, 100x big job. And you're doing it with bootstrap money and a team of 10, right? So, so vision is really easy to have. Bringing it to life is hard. Articulating to other people is hard. Being patient and moving it quickly without overwhelm and moving it slowly without drudgery. All of those things in every aspect.
Melody [:Just described my life every day, especially like in those frustrating moments where vision is far ahead. I am looking at the day-to-day progress. I'm worried about overwhelming people with too much change too quickly, but also I'm like, why can't they take on more like me? I want them to be doing 30 things. That's again why a vision strainer is so important because they're keeping the cadence, the actual rhythm that normal humans need to exist within so that we don't drive them crazy. I think that's another reason.
Curt [:Pushing humans to what they can do, right? So that's another thing is that as long as the visionary— I know I'm guilty of this, I'll say, but that's unrealistic. So we'll just deal with the status quo today and tomorrow will be a new day. That's also bad because I'm not going to push it. I'm not, I'm not going to get out there and like, like, but then maybe you do get out and push them way too hard. I've been in both camps. I'll say one other thing about vision for a business owner. I think this is important. And hopefully my people are hearing this too.
Curt [:A lot of times you'll give a backseat to your own health, your own sanity. And you'll say, my vision is something that's going to happen 10 years from now, or 5 years from now, or even a month from now. And so today, I will eat junky food, I will not exercise, I will not take personal time to de-stress or relieve my anxieties, because anything less than pushing forward on my vision, it shows weakness. And I got big. I remember Jason Geiman one time walked up to me at a convention. He's like, whoa, you put on some pounds. I remember being like, yeah, I remember being like, I hate you so much for saying that. You look down and you go, you might be right about that.
Curt [:So I want to say that vision needs to extend. As I'm saying, you're looking down the road and you're looking right what's in front of you. I have recently in the last year gotten my health a lot more under control. And I'm super stoked about some of the barriers I've broken through. But I'm also mentally in a different place. And so having vision that extends— I've talked about the quadrants in your business and the different departments and different goals and vision achievements that you want. But I think that as an entrepreneur, I've been guilty of not putting myself and my vision for my family and my relationships and myself physically. And we've— we talk on this podcast about spiritually too.
Curt [:I think that that's another big thing. If you're gonna be a visionary, just like my encouragement to you, and just sort of at this place in my life right now, my encouragement would be to say, don't forget that you can't just visualize one part of the future and allow yourself to be addicted to that because it will have you giving up. The vision for maybe what you actually want.
Melody [:It feels like vision is also something you mentioned, like spirituality. It almost feels like, um, a gift from God or whoever we— because you said if you choose to be a visionary, I don't think people choose. It is bestowed upon them as a gift.
Ivan [:For our final segment, we are getting into the messy world of business partnerships. Mel shares a wild story about bringing on a partner for her Holiday Lights business. And actually visiting a divorce lawyer to draft up a business prenup beforehand. She details the importance of planning for every disaster and the one crucial clause she forgot to add: what to do when you simply stop liking the other person.
Melody [:When I had my holiday lights company, I decided to sell. But before I decided to sell, I knew I couldn't do both Home Service VA and holiday lights, like the day-to-day management of holiday lights. So I decided to take on a partner, and I just happened to have somebody that I've known on the periphery for a long time. Just like, knew this person, they seemed to be a hard worker, they seemed to have like, they were an artist, so they got things made. They knew how to make things and create things, which is a part of like, that process. You have to be a good designer, you have to be a hustler. I'd thought about it a lot, but I had, my brain had made the decision. Like, I was like, this person's here.
Melody [:And so I did a project with them. It was kind of a test of like, can we— it was a prom. We had to, we had to build, we had a $15,000 budget to build sets for a one-day event for a prom and design everything and put it all up and then take it down really quick. But, and I loved it. But this person was building props. They were doing, designing the sets with me. And I never was working a lot with them at the same time. And when the day came for us to actually have to hustle, put these things together, they got COVID.
Melody [:And this was during like, you can't go in here during COVID So I didn't get to do that part with them. But everything else they had done, I'm like, this is great. They're smart. We can figure this out. I went to a lawyer beforehand. I went to a divorce lawyer. It's weird.
Curt [:Oh, wow.
Melody [:Because again, I've seen partnerships fail. I wanted a prenup where we would talk through everything that could possibly happen, whether like one of us gets divorced and then There's like asset issues if one of us becomes a drug addict or an alcoholic or dies. I wanted to have all the answers for this thing. The one thing that I did not add to the contract, which I might have talked about before, I don't know, is what if we don't like each other anymore? Like, what if this person has bad habits, like burping in front of customers, or even our team was like, no. And I don't think— and she was so unaware of it. And it got to the point where I just didn't like her more and more. I like everybody, but this one was hard. I like her as a person, but not as a partner.
Melody [:And so I paid her out at the end. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have put her right in as a partner because I'd always said I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't have made it an owner finance. I would have had her put some money in. I always say I'm not doing this ever again, and then I do it again. But I just felt guilty and I paid her some money and then it was my business again and I sold it. It was a really hard experience. I learned a lot.
Melody [:I did not feel good as a person. I didn't feel good as a business owner. Well, now I have a contract that I can use in other partnerships in the future. And I just have one thing to add, which is what happens if we don't like each other at a certain point, which is something that I know that goes way too deep. I went way too deep with it, but also I'm so afraid of not having it work that I want it to be clear-cut how we get out of it. But in the future, I wouldn't do a partnership that way. I wouldn't just buy them in immediately. I'd have them earn it.
Curt [:Yeah, I like the idea of dating before marriage.
Melody [:Yes.
Curt [:Personally, I love that.
Melody [:Oh, you don't like to just meet your wife right the first time at the altar? Right.
Curt [:So in business, I think we often Can like say, well, I've known you long enough, so I'm gonna just partner up with you. So I think that's wise.
Ivan [:That is it for this compilation. For those keeping track and wanting to hear the full conversations, today's segments were pulled from episode 38, The Hiring Experiment Part 1, episode 39, The Hiring Experiment Part 2, episode 20, The Hard Truth About Teams and Growth. Episode 9, Visionaries vs. Control Freaks, and Episode 17, Business Partnerships. I am going back to editing, and hopefully Mel enjoys the rest of her trip here in the Philippines before I have to force her and Curt back to the mics. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe, and we will catch you on the next one.
Curt [:Thanks everybody for joining us at the Soul Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews, and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many others. If you want to engage with us at our website, maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear on the podcast, Feel free to go to souleproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.