Finding Meaning Beyond Business: A Year of Soul Proprietor

I have such a sad view of the future. I'm really worried about the future. For the first time, I've thought to myself, do I need to pull my children aside and apologize to bringing them into this world?

When you're sitting in the space of nothingness because you don't have that purpose anymore that you've had for forever, it's much, much harder than it seems like it would be. And imagine that on a worldwide level. Like, we don't know what we are without work.

As a business owner who's always made so much meaning out of business, I'm just, I guess, mentally preparing myself for the fact that a business will make so much less meaning in the world.

So I am changing how I view it because I feel like, oh, I can heal my brain.

Welcome to the Soul Proprietor Podcast. I'm Curt Kimpton.

And I'm Melody Edwards.

Each week we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.

Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are welcome here. Oh, hello, Curt Kempson.

Hello, Melody. How are you?

Curt, I'm good because today is a very special day that we both forgot about. It's our 1-year anniversary of doing the podcast.

Oh my gosh. I couldn't believe it when you told me. I was like, I thought we'd be doing it like 6 months.

Thank you, Sheila Clark, for saying happy anniversary to me in my text message only. For me to not know what she was talking about because I forgot.

I know that a lot of our listeners— well, unless she's our only listener— may not know who Sheila Clark is. I love Sheila Clark.

I love Sheila Clark too. She is a soul proprietor alongside us because she is all about integrity and law and order and all the things. And we have to have her on the show sometimes because she also has her own podcast called Perverted Justice. It would— I think it was like a short podcast. I don't think it's like a long-running, so like a series. She has an amazing story and I don't even want to tell it in this one little blurb. She is one of the strongest, bravest people that I know, not afraid to stand up for what she believes in. And I'm so grateful to call her a good friend.

And given her circumstances, I think there's a lot of things I respect about her and Pat, both her husband Pat, but I just feel like If I was in her situation, I would love to think that I would come out of it as healthy, balanced, and spiritually intact as she has remained, because she's been challenged in many, many different ways. And I didn't know she had a podcast, to be honest. I actually would really like to hear it. And she's pretty open about it. It's not like she has a different side of the story to tell than probably what I've already heard, but I'd love to hear it all in one place because She got stretched in some social and spiritual ways. And then of course there's the physical, mental, and emotional ways that, you know, anyway, there's a lot of depth to her story.

So, and it's just, I don't want to leave it like that though, because we just said so much, but basically she was abused by a pastor at her church and the church let her down big time and it continues to let her down. And she is very much about telling her story and getting justice. And I so respect that. In fact, the reason I met Sheila was because I had seen her post maybe through Pat had put, like, shared something she had posted. And I reached out to her to just introduce myself and say, like, I just so relate to this and appreciate her being so vulnerable. You and I both met Pat through business, and I love that Pat is so supportive of Sheila. I mean, because they're a team.

They really are. They do a great job, I think, of showing team.

Let's be honest, Sheila's— as many women are, Pat couldn't do it without her.

And they have kids and a family that's held together. And I think Pat's work has definitely required him to, as a father, need to really count on the mother to do a lot of stuff that he just could not be there for. Yet he's always tried to be there. And I think— I don't want to like Critique their family dynamic. The point being that she's done a lot as a mother in addition to helping as an entrepreneur's wife.

And as an invisible business owner as well as many, I know so many women where the guys are on the front end and they're the face because women don't want to be the face. They just want to, you know, they do their backend stuff, they take care of things, but they allow the visionaries to shine essentially. So thank you very much to Sheila.

Yeah. All that to say, thank you for telling us about our 1-year mark. We would not have done it without you.

And go and look up Perverted Justice.

I know I will. And I'd recommend it to anybody.

So here we are. Here we are. So like just starting out, like what were we thinking?

I've told my side of the story on the podcast once before. You know, it is interesting. I don't think you took it the way I did. So. Maybe I'll share mine and then you can just set the record straight. But I was on a podcast with the great Melody Edwards called Business Misfits, and you had me on. I was at a family reunion. We were up in the mountains.

I was sitting underneath a Ramada so as to not bother anybody else in the house. And we went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. And it actually started getting really cold.

Yeah, you were freezing.

I was freezing outside, but I just really was Lifted up by our conversation. And as part of the conversation, I just threw the off comment like, Melody, we got to do more of this. This is really good for me. And you're like, oh yeah, we totally should. That would be great. And I'm like, we should do a podcast together. And you're like, hahaha. And then we just kept finishing the podcast.

I remember sending numerous text messages like, hey Melody, I just want you to know I'm serious about that podcast thing if you're into it. And you're like, oh yeah, we totally should. And then I'm like, So do you want to do that or do you not want to do that? And then you're like, yeah, that'd be great.

We totally should.

So do I need to set a time with you? How does this work? I don't know how to make a podcast go onto the internet where people could listen to it. And I really am serious about this. It felt like I was chasing and you were always friendly and amicable, but I was like, I really want to do this. So we finally had our first meeting and you're like, I didn't know you were serious about this. So anyway, from that point it felt like we're very much in alignment, but getting it to this point was like, that was how I remember it.

Yeah, I was actually trying to scroll back and see what actually happened because I do know that you were, I wouldn't say chasing, but you were definitely on it. Curt, I always held you up in I mean, you were a friend acquaintance, right? But I always thought of you as being one of my business heroes just because you were so aligned with the way that I think about work and business and everything compared to the other people that we were in business with, you know, in that world. You were the most Melody-like in my view. And it's interesting that you say that you don't think of yourself as ADD because that was one of the first conversations I remember really having with you. Way back, like so many years ago, probably when I had been diagnosed and just wondering like, how do you handle it? Because I could see you were visionary. And so I've had this long history with you where, but never beyond just acquaintanceship, but like, but I wanted to be your friend. But as we said in the beginning of this podcast, like when we started a year ago, like you don't have friends. You don't let friends, like Rachel's your friend and that's your friend, right?

Yeah. That's the only friend I need.

Yeah. That's all. That's all you need.

And I've always said that too, which probably makes it a little bit intimidating. it like, oh, he's not looking for friends. So yeah, I can hear that.

You're kind of like literally saying, don't you dare be my friend.

I do do that. I agree. Yeah. So shade accepted.

Yeah. I was so excited you said yes to even be on that podcast because at the time I was like, I am nothing. Who am I to start a podcast? And then the fact that you came on and you were joking about starting one with me, I was like, wow, what an honor. And then you kept poking me after, and then I was like so excited about the idea and also very not excited because about the process of starting a podcast because I had already done it and I knew how hard it would be and I knew I didn't wanna do more work. And so that's kind of where our starting point was, is like, I just wanted to talk with you, have conversations every week, but I didn't wanna like do the work of it. And so we both, you know, put our money where our mouth is and eventually ended up with Genevieve and Ivan, thank you. And we've been doing pretty good ever since, I would say. And I will say though, I still do a lot more work than you.

Oh gosh. Yes.

I do.

Yeah. You really do.

But I don't mind.

This whole thing, I think there's a bit of a guilt about continuing the podcast. It's such a bright spot in my day where I feel like I step out of the trenches and like into the light and it's so wonderful. But I know that there's a sacrifice being paid for that light for me of someone who's got their nose to the grindstone. And the idea was for Genevieve and for Ivan to be that, but it can't be that way. We have to do vision casting. And I just, as soon as I get out, what am I doing? I'm back in the trenches again. And—

Well, in the beginning, we really thought it out. Like we worked hard to think of what episodes we wanted to do and what we had so many topics to talk about. And we've talked about all those topics.

Yeah.

And I wasn't thinking very long-term. I was like, you know, let's see how this goes, but I wasn't expecting that it could continue on, right? And so I'm obviously shocked that we're one year in. That year flew by. But I'm really grateful too because I feel like this is also a highlight of my week where I get to sit down and think about what I think and bat it around with you and just kind of talk about things again that nobody else talks about. And that's one of the reasons why I was so honored and excited to do this with you is because you've never been afraid to talk about the things most people won't talk about. And that's exciting to me because I'm a nerd.

I don't know. I don't know what to add to that other than the fact that I feel so much the same. I remember when we were first having our conversation, I felt like, gosh, I haven't been able to talk to anybody about stuff like this Forever, like maybe ever. And, you know, I guess, no, you know what, when I'm at a conference and I get one-on-one with somebody at a table and we're eating a meal, I actually have conversations like that and I love it and it sends me home feeling so charged. But then it feels like the moment I leave that conference, it's back to—

Our disease.

Yeah. I mean, we're so busy working, we don't have time to philosophically like dive into like, what are we doing? Like, why are we doing this? What, you know, And I just felt very much like we needed to have these conversations all the time. This is what it's about. And yeah.

I mean, I still don't kind of know what this podcast is. Like, we talk about a lot of different things, and most of the time it is like a lot of ethical questions. It's also gone way more into religion and spirituality at times. Like, we always said that it would be a mix of both, but sometimes we just dive right into that part of it only. So it's not just a business podcast, it's really like a soul podcast.

Yeah, I think I'll never be the same. I don't think I'll ever go back to the same before my crisis of faith, because before my crisis of faith, it was also black and white, and it felt like religion and faith and spirituality were all the same. And then what happened was I had my crisis of faith in realizing that other people are having just as powerful spiritual experiences in their life within other faiths. And when that happened, like, it was really hard to like bring those 2 things into agreement. But like, I realized that for half my life, or a lot more than half my life, I was discounting other people's abilities to commune with the creator because they didn't have the experience and the things that I had in my own life. And so because I'd done that for so long, I felt like I had a lot of room to make up in my mind about, you know, other people are also feeling existential reasons for the things that they do every day. They have these deep and powerful feelings with their motivations and prioritizations for their life that, like, I guess it's kind of a shame for me to admit it, but I just, to be in the spirit of honesty, I think that I'd always assumed that other people were somehow in this weird cloud of not having the ability to have what I had.

Like delusion, or they were like kind of in their own little cult or something.

Or maybe like a numb version. Like I thought everyone was living a numb version of what I had. And maybe delusion is actually, boy, that sucks to have to say that. I think it's a little too harsh, but I think delusion is unfortunately one of the better words to describe that other people were like trying to counterfeit the experiences that I had had in my life or the relationship I had with God. And just kind of coming to terms with realizing that the world is so much bigger than I had allowed myself to think. And that God loves and cares and gives much bigger and much more diverse than I thought he would or could or should. And now I have that lens over everything I look at.

Curt, I just also had a weird thought that I want to put out there. We have talked to each other over 40 hours. So like, We have spent one work week talking to each other, and I don't feel like our work fell behind because of this at all. I made space for this as much as I have been able to, and you've made space for this. So it's almost like we've created another buffer in our life for this. But can you imagine that we spent a week talking at each other?

That's so cool.

It really is. Can I ask, has anything shifted or changed for you over the past year? Both because of the podcast or just in general, have you noticed anything shifting in you?

Well, I think I've been through a large, like, 2-mountain, 1-valley cycle, and I'm sort of at the top of the mountain now. There was a trough in the middle. I can talk about that a little bit. I think that when we started, it was a high.

I know what we did. We started working on all of the backend stuff.

Yeah, website, owning the URL, email address, all that.

And just like getting that stuff together, but we took our time and then we tried to, I knew that if, like, it could be easy to fall behind on podcast episodes, and I was— I'm always afraid, so I'm always trying to plan ahead. So I think we, like, got 6 to 8 podcast episodes recorded in the beginning.

We did. That's right.

Then we re-recorded a couple because we didn't like the originals. Do you remember?

Yeah. So I guess my recollection is, is when we started, I was on a real high and rode that high for quite a while. And then just work and life and alignment. And I was working with AI. I felt like I had to work around the clock. And I think there was a middle spot there where I just started feeling like maybe I need to back off of some of the things that I'm talking about. Do you remember we had a conversation about it?

We didn't want to like launch and then try to get all the stuff done. Like, I was like, let's just get the stuff done, and when we feel good about it— I actually would have been totally fine if we recorded and then you just told me it was broadcast.

That's the benefit of you not being on Yeah. Media for you that you can just imagine that things are happening online. And I think we don't really reach a huge audience still. I think Jeanne Vers sent me some data today, but we've never thought of this as a numbers game. It's like, first of all, it's business therapy for us, and we know that there are other people like us out there. Like, Sheila's one of many. My friend Kalen actually just texted me the other day She listens to our podcast and she told us, you know, it was a great episode. It was the Brain Podcast.

And then she kind of said, just keep doing what you're doing. And who's our buddy who always listens?

Garrett Farr.

Yeah, Garrett.

I love Garrett.

He also has been a great listener. So there are like, here and there I get, like, nobody tells us that they listen most of the time. It's not like every listener is reaching out or something. But every once in a while somebody will be like, oh yeah, I listened. But of course, I think our number one listener has to be Matthew Hunter, my husband.

Oh yeah?

It's almost like a prerequisite at this point.

Rachel throws out enough stuff that I know she listens as well.

Yeah, but he was there from the beginning and he has continued to listen. And thank you, Matt, for supporting me. It also gives us good topics of conversation. Also, it must be weird as a spouse to listen to your spouse's talk about you on a public forum, basically. I mean, we always have nice things to say, but still.

I asked Rachel just— it was a couple months back— I was like, so you ready to come on the podcast yet? And she like shook her head no.

Oh, come on.

But I think it's funny, like, she's a famous icon on this podcast. All you have to do now is just show up.

Yeah. Really? I mean, we are really nice people and we won't bite.

If she just would take some time to get to know me, she'd find out.

Matt says the same thing.

I'm not nearly as mean as she would think.

It's been really cool to be able to put our thoughts out into the universe and have the right people, if they're interested, listen to them and relate to them. Because like, I wish that I had heard conversations like the ones that we're having.

Yeah.

Over the years. So that's been like, really, really fun. I've enjoyed it. Sometimes it's been hard. There have been moments like when you were deep in your building of the dashboard season of your life, or you were having like, problems in your company for a while, like in terms of interpersonal things, or just like getting leadership and stuff. Like, when you've come on here, sometimes there's a weight in you, But I also feel like this has been an escape for you at those times.

Yeah. I mean, there was times when it felt so all-consuming. There was a time when I was only getting like 2 or 3 hours of sleep a night. Like, and that went for kind of a long stretch and I was doing my very best and I'd try to be like really upbeat on the podcast because it really was like stepping into the light and out of like out from underneath all the weight of everything. And now I still have like a ton of weight around like that last podcast we did about AI and there's a lot of uncertainty for the future. And I have a lot of trepidation about what's going to happen in my family, my life, my existence. And of course the world, like the whole world I think is about to shift. But it's funny how I've almost, I think I've either become stronger or number or something like I'm finding more joy in my ability to allow some of this, like this heaviness to just roll off my back and go, the weight will always be there.

Just show up. work really hard and then get out of it and be out of it when you're out of it. And that's been good for me lately.

I was just thinking about this. I took a bike ride right before this because I was feeling— I have not felt a lot of stress in my business life or anything in a long time. And just today, suddenly I felt a little overwhelmed by the feelings of like starting to go towards that place of overwhelm. And I was like, screw this, I have to go for a bike ride because I know what heals me. And I was thinking about just on the bike ride, because I do a lot of thinking on bike rides, as do you. And I was just thinking about like how much I think I've changed of being able to find ways to not live in that stress all the time, and also to allow myself to just be like, I don't want that. And then, you know, make choices that are different. Even this year, when I look back at the beginning versus till now, I think I'm a lot more confident in my belief system.

Remember in the beginning I used to say, I don't know if I believe there's a God anymore, but I'm definitely going to hell for it. I don't know if I do or don't believe in that anymore necessarily, which is now like adding a whole nother layer to that whole statement. I think though that I believe more in, I mean, I have a spiritual nature and I find that in nature, I'm not uncomfortable in our conversations that we have. about God. Um, and it's made me more comfortable. Like, it's kind of healed a little bit of my religious trauma.

Oh, that's so good.

Yeah. My parents love talking to me about God, but they are very careful about how they insert it into our conversations because I have had a big block. And I think I'm much more open to hearing their points of view on things or letting them talk at me about it a little bit more without feeling that instant, like, er, you know?

Have you gotten to the point yet where you're trying to communicate with any sort of creator, or is it right now just more thoughtful?

I think I just always do that anyway. Like, I don't know that I'm not always talking to myself on my bike rides, like, but I've always done that. Like, so I don't know who I'm talking to or what I'm saying, or I'm not even sure, but it's just kind of like, I don't overthink that part of it. It's just what I've always done, but I don't know what that is.

Is there any sort of feeling of reciprocation in it, or does it just feel like you're speaking out into the universe kind of thing?

The person or god that I am speaking to definitely has some sort of sense of humor. Like, it is not answering prayers for me or anything like that. Like, I don't really ask for that, because I don't quite believe in that. The world is too complicated to believe that my American prayers, like, my first-world prayers are gonna be answered, right? I think there's like, it's more about, you know, peace of mind or just— Having, yeah, more of a sense of peace is why I have those conversations. And it's not like I'm talking back and forth to a deity; it's that I'm just talking into the air and things are coming into my brain. So maybe that's prayer. But I always, always feel that in nature or in music, also in psychedelic journeys.

Tell me a little about that. Like, we never really did spend a lot of time, and that's obviously encapsulated in the first year, like, What did you leave the psychedelic journey like? Did you put anything in your backpack from that, or?

Oh yeah. It's so interesting because the whole point of my life and world is I'm always experimenting. I am a science experiment. And oftentimes I just want to understand who I am and why I think the way I do and how I exist in the world and all the things, right? And so part of it is our conversations here.

Yeah.

But like, a lot has changed since we talked because I got off antidepressants after 9 years so that I could go on that medicine journey. But it's also because I wanted to for a long time, but I was afraid. And so going off of that has given me a lot more clarity and happiness and like, emotional— like, I'm very close to my emotions again. But when I went on that journey, I had just come off, so like, I was all over the place. I was crying if I heard a certain— not just any song, but like all songs would make me cry. And anybody could say anything and I would cry, but I wasn't sad. I was just crying. Like, well, the tears had been saved for too many years.

That journey was amazing because first of all, it takes you outside of like the etiquette that we have for like what we are and are not allowed to think or say. Who we are and like who we think we are is so much based on our societal norms and all of the things around us, and that goes away. And so everybody has their own journey when these things happen. This wasn't my first, but it was a different kind. But I just spent a lot of time talking to people and forgiving people and just understanding people that maybe I'd struggled with in the past or that I had failed, and just really having compassionate, very deep conversations even though nobody was there. But I felt like they were there.

Oh, sorry. So this whole thing you're saying, these were just conversations happening inside of you.

But I felt like they were with people because in my brain there was a line growing of people that I needed to talk to.

I shared with you before we ever started this podcast, I shared with you a podcast called the Full Cup Podcast. And one of the things that he does as a therapist is he has you sit in a chair and look at an empty chair, Talking to someone that you need to reconcile with, or a past version of yourself that you're like telling the little girl that was growing up, like, was it kind of like that? Is that what you're—

Kind of like there's therapy like that that I've done too. I think it's called family systems or something, but it was kind of like that, except I had brought a bolster pillow. So I was holding this pillow and I had my head under a blanket and I was just whispering to this pillow as if it was a human. And like I said, a whole line of people that kept showing up and I was like, guys, I can't, I need to finish with the people in front of me. Or sometimes I'd be like, I need a break, you guys. I'm going to go to the bathroom really quick. I'll be right back. And then I'd stare in the mirror and be like, Melody, you're doing such a great job.

I love you so much. It was all that like crazy love that we don't usually feel for ourselves. Right.

And you were physically seeing these people and experiences?

But like a vision. It wasn't like I thought they were there in, like, real life. I knew on the one hand that they weren't there, but I also knew that they were there because I was talking to them.

I've never been on psychedelics, so you have to forgive, like, any naivety here.

No, no, no. It would make sense. Like, I had lots of thoughts of what I thought it would be before I went on my ketamine therapy journeys, and this one a lot too. But I think one of the things is I'm very open I want to understand the universe. I want to understand my universe. And so I'm very open when I am on these drugs to discovery. And I think when you're more open, I think some people can't open the door. Like, my door is open.

I'm ready for it. I've never had a bad trip, as people say, and maybe I will someday, but so far not. But I really feel so much during these times, and it really changes my inner voice. It changes the way that I think about the world or that I see the world. Doesn't change my whole life. I still am living in the existence of my people and my business and all the other things, but it just, it does shift something in you.

You know, it's funny, as you went off of the antidepressants and as you did go on that psychedelics journey, I don't know what you want to call it, and then also seeing the doctor in the Philippines, that sort of made a breakthrough. And then on your brain scan, like, I gotta say, I think even if you just went back and you listened to all the very first few sentences of each of our podcasts in the last year—

Oh yes, I know what you're gonna say.

I think you've changed dramatically.

I have, because I didn't even know how I felt most of our podcast episodes. When you'd say, how are you doing today? I'd be like, I don't know, how am I doing today? And I mean it. I meant it because I didn't know. And now there's no hesitation. I know how I'm doing.

Do you credit that mostly to the antidepressants?

I would say I think it's that and coming off of— and the psychedelic journey probably as well. I can't credit it to one thing.

Yeah, it's a series for sure.

It was a series, and it's been such a short amount of time. Like, all of these things happened within 3 months.

When you're in the Philippines and you met the—

The doctor.

The doctor, you know.

Magic doctor. Yes.

Magic doctor. That were like turning for the better. And what's ironic Is that I think most people will be like, yeah, probably when she started her sabbatical, things started getting great. And like that, if I didn't have to work, it'd be wonderful. The irony is, is that I felt like when you went on your sabbatical, which you learned in your brain scan, actually, I think what actually happened.

Yeah. I don't think it was a good thing to go. I mean, it didn't help me to take a break. Yeah.

Because working allowed you to get into the zone, that mojo, and then that de-stressing your brain, like laying in bed at night is actually where things kicked off. And you ironically had it probably going almost all the time. It's just ironic that it didn't, even though it's all been good here in the end, the things that you would have thought would have triggered amazingness actually weren't. And some of the things that were sort of like, maybe seems like kind of a funny, weird little thing ended up being such a door.

Well, the other part of it is I really couldn't work or think, or, and I had no energy. So even after that medicine journey, even after coming off meds, I still didn't have energy. I still couldn't think clearly. I was just closer to my emotions, right? And it wasn't until the magic Korean doctor— I'm just gonna keep calling him that.

Yeah, I don't know what kind of doctor he was.

He was an acupressure doctor, but like when he did his work on me, it released something in my muscles that allowed probably oxygen flow to my brain or something. And then having the Amen Clinic diagnosis, from my perspective, has shifted me Incredibly towards confidence.

Are you using food and drink like medicine now?

I'm trying. It is so hard to change, Curt, but I'm really trying. I just actually only ordered the supplements today because I kept forgetting. I've been taking other things, but I kept forgetting to. So really, I gave myself through end of the year and I said, I'm committed for 3 months. So 3 months hasn't even really started yet, but I have made changes and I will continue to focus on that. But it's definitely hard to change. I am really proud of myself though for how much I remember about what I learned, because usually I remember nothing, but I remember in detail what I was told and that makes me excited.

So I know that my brain has changed. A lot has changed since the beginning of the podcast.

I've definitely enjoyed watching this journey in the last little bit. It's just been fun to watch my friend You know, just turning corners that are so good. You know, it's funny, destruction seems to usually happen really fast. Like if you want to tear a building down and you hit it with one big swoop of a wrecking ball and like you can undo a lot of work, but building buildings just takes a long time. And it's kind of that way for everything. Relationships you can ruin in one fell swoop, but you know, it takes time to build. That's how life is. But when you see someone have like a real, like nice run, it's like, golly, there's just not a lot of that going on in the world.

Yeah, it's been really nice. And I'm not confident that this will last forever because history tells me that I've gone through periods of time like this before, but not like this. So I'm very optimistic that what I'm experiencing is going to last in terms of energy and clarity, but I'm also very careful when I start to feel the signs of anything but that to just shut myself down. Like, I won't work through it anymore. Like earlier when I was starting to feel that stress, that's usually when I would have had my brain start to do its thing. I shut it down and I went for a bike ride. So I am changing how I view it because I feel like, oh, I can heal my brain.

And I'm an optimist by default. So maybe factor that in a little bit here, but maybe not too hard. The point is, is that sometimes, you know, they say every overnight success comes after years and years of hard work. That's just a saying that I remember hearing as I was like grinding through my business. But I think that, you know, my wedding and my marriage to my wife, you know, people would say, oh, yesterday he wasn't married and now today he is and good for him. And it's been, you know, very obviously pivotal, wonderful thing in my life. But there was a lot of courtship and a lot of time and energy invested to not a woman I wasn't married to for that pivotal time to happen. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes durable things, like just to kind of hopefully preserve some of this confidence in you, Because sometimes, like, really durable things, you'll work really hard on it.

You'll put in a lot of energy and investment into it, and then now the door can swing on the hinge. And then when that happens, you're like, hey, cool. And I can even control the door. Like you were just saying, I see something, and now that I've lived it, it's been my experience. I know what that means, and I can now control the door and open it up to things I want it to be open to. Like your bike ride. So I have faith and optimism and all that for you.

I do too. I do. And, you know, I was thinking about this the other day. I haven't even been operating really on a business plan this year. We started with one, but as my health got worse and worse, I just really restricted me and my team to just being able to keep going. I've come to like, when I look back, And so right now I'm coming back to, oh, my BHAGs, what were those again? Like all of the planning that I had spent so much time doing in the past and that we were working off of, we were doing the bare minimum. And I think we did really good for doing the bare minimum. Like we grew from where we started, but like we didn't like explode or anything.

And part of it was because I was scared of my capacity limits. And right now, I feel like I can start to push again, but not in the same like workaholic way. I can start to push again towards bigger things. And also the fact that we kept being able to do the podcast for a year, even as I was struggling and at times you were struggling, that's pretty good. We did take that long summer break.

And actually the summer break was rejuvenating for me as well.

Yeah. We should probably always do that.

Yeah. I think that taking that summer break, thank you, Ivan and Genevieve, so much for holding the fort down while we were gone. That was a real help for me to jump out of that deep hole, to realize, like, I spent 2 weeks not doing anything in AI, not building anything, and everything's still good. You know, like—

That's what my summer was like. Yeah. Like, it makes you think that the world will end if you're not in it all the time. And guess what? It never does. I wanted to ask you what your favorite episode, or, like, if you can think of an episode that sticks out for you.

There is one that stands out. I can't say if it's my favorite one.

Well, a standout episode. Yeah.

There was a time where we interviewed each other as if we were like hiring.

Oh yeah, that was fun. Yeah.

And I just loved that. That was pretty vulnerable. Like, this is how I interview. This is how she interviews. And I hate that we used you as the example of like how we used to—

I was the bad example and it was how I used to interview way back when. And so you got to really shine and I was like—

I know that part.

When can you start? Thanks. Yeah.

I thought that was a cool format for a podcast only because, you know, I'm a very literal person. And when I listen to people on podcasts talk about how everything can be great if everyone would just do this utopian mindset, you know, but this was like, it was just real. And I mean, I wasn't really hiring you, but we allowed it to be in that chaos of like, no pre-planning and just sort of taking stock in what we had learned over the years. And I actually, because your terrible interview was exactly the same way my terrible interviews were, that contrast meant a lot to me. What about you?

We've grown. I mean, my whole business is recruiting and hiring people now, so the fact that I can do that successfully is pretty amazing, but we've definitely grown a lot. I think, you know, Having somebody to talk about AI with has been very helpful because the things I worry about are the things you're worried about. So, and in the beginning, I definitely, I think was more, I was going to the conferences and I was like really deep into it. But now we're at the point where like we both understand what we're afraid of with this. And it's not just for the world, but for our own souls as well, like keeping ourselves and our sanity and everything. But I think I'm looking at our episodes to see which one stood out, but I don't have to look. It was Selling Without Selling Your Soul was, I think, one of my favorites.

I don't even remember what we talked about, but that was the most therapeutic episode for me. And that was one of our first, I think.

Yeah, I remember that one being very early on. No doubt we talked a lot about Josh Latimer. We had to have.

And then we had him on.

And I was just gonna say, that was a memorable couple episodes.

Those were 2 episodes. Yeah. And I think that's the only time you've ever been mad at me during this whole year, Curt.

Mad at you?

Oh, you were not happiest with me because I was like too enthusiastic about interviewing him.

Oh no. Oh, actually, that's what kicked off our talk about where I was feeling like maybe I was trying to steer the podcast in a direction that didn't feel good to you.

But also that led to conversations, then we kept going and it's been all good. I think when I look back at the people we've interviewed now that we've also interviewed Dave and we had Megan and Bobby And Josh. So we haven't interviewed a ton of people, but those are all the people I wanted to dive into their brains and figure them out a little bit. Right. And I feel like we're able to do that.

I was going to say, you know, talking to Bobby on the soul Proprietor Podcast was, you know, I just love talking to Bobby and Bobby and I have great conversations. And lately we've been picking up and having quite a few off, you know, just on ourselves a lot as well. But it's just fun to share your friend. with the world. I feel the same way about Megan. She's just been such a dear friend for so long. It's kind of fun to just take someone on and be like, I love this person. I want you guys to be able to meet my friend.

And ask them questions that nobody ever asks them on podcasts. Right. And there's a lot of people I would love to have on the podcast in the future and also more women. I feel like it'll always steer more towards interviewing men, I feel like, because that's the business world we've been in and that's kind of like the people we tend to know. But there are so many amazing women doing things out there too. And so like having Sheila on would be a good idea. I'd love to hear her story.

I would love that. And Pat too.

I wonder if Pat— because Pat would play well. We could do them both.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great?

They could both come in. Yeah. Okay, you guys are coming on the podcast.

Or maybe separately. It'd be kind of fun to have them on separate.

Yeah, we could do that. Pat's like such an, like he is the optimist of all optimists, I feel like. But there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes with all our, you know, like we just learn a lot from people. So.

Remember when we had Michael Hinderliter on?

Yes, of course. Michael's been a longtime friend of mine. He was like the only person who said, when am I going to be on the podcast? I'm like, okay.

Yeah. But he has such a cool story. And, you know, another one of those ones where he is.

He's evolving all the time.

He's got a pretty big business. I've always thought of him as being a very quiet person. Which he's definitely done the work to, you know, put himself where he wants to be.

I talked to him the other day and we were texting and I think yesterday even, and he was just saying like, he's, you know, kind of looking towards the vision of the life that he wants to have. Because I think in many ways he and I are in similar positions of his kids are grown up now, Caitlin. And so he's trying to figure out what he wants in his life. My kids are about to be grown up. So I'm having like a transition as well. But he's like, I want to work 6 months of the year. I want to travel 6 months of the year. And I'm like, that's ambitious and also probably totally doable.

Yeah.

He's one of those guys I just really want the best for too. He's such a—

He's a good guy. He really is. And he's been a good friend. So yeah, that was anyway, Selling Without Selling My Soul. The one that I really enjoyed because it was like 20 years of therapy right there for me, just putting out into words how I feel about sales and having somebody be like, yeah, me too. Right? So, oh, the business partnership episode too, the one where we talked about partnerships, that one I've actually sent to people as I've been looking, continuing to look for a partner.

Oh yes, yes!

And I use as a reference of like, here's my thoughts on partnership, listen to this episode, right?

How funny that you were able to turn our content into like a super useful like discovery piece, I guess.

There's been so many good conversations, I think.

Do you remember when you— the infiltration of the Christian conference? Do you remember that one?

Yes, I do. That was good too.

Remember interviewing you on site? You're like snuck into like a side room. Actually, someone walked in in the middle of that one.

It was—

and you're like, oh, do you need this room?

I'm going to be going back to that conference this year or next year. Yeah, in April. So I liked it enough to go back and I still I would love someday to have Karen and JC Hite, who run the conference, come on and talk to us because they are very big belief people. And do you know what they just did is they now— I think they are now the Love Languages of Work. They have partnered with him and that's their business as well. So they do a lot of events, but I met them, you know, at another event.

Gary Chapman.

Yes, Gary Chapman. And he's somebody That was very much in my old Christian world. Like, he's been around a long time, so— but he's like one of those famous longtime, you know, leader people. And I heard him speak and he was awesome. So let's talk about like, we were going to ask each other some questions.

Oh yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready.

Oh, you are? Okay. So like, just a quick easy one is like, what topic could you turn into a philosophical discussion? Or even easier, What could you talk about all day?

I love talking about my creator. I just find it mysterious, and there's so much signs around. There's so much confusion around it. The creator, I could talk about it all day.

That's true, you could, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I could talk about that as well, but I don't have I don't feel as confident in my understanding or any part of that because I'm a baby still. So I'm always trying to figure it out, but I learn a lot from you. And I think I'm inspired by the way that you approach your relationship to God and your spiritual relationship in general.

Same question for you. Let's, I want to flip it to the part where I have to guess first, but let's just ask you, what is the, you could talk about ours.

Oh, how our brains work. I always— I love the psychology of us and figuring out like, why do we think the things we do? What is going on in our brain that they've discovered? And they've discovered like, minute amounts of things. Like, they know nothing about our brains compared to what it actually is and does. But I think that is one. The other one is like, probably like AI. I think I could talk about that all day and all night.

And as everyone knows, I could too.

Yeah. That's like a shared topic. We probably should have one episode only per month that's focused on AI.

I don't know. Our last talk about it, I just feel like it's so intertwined with what's happening so quickly in the world and around ethics that I think that we're bad hosts if we don't, personally.

But— I know. Well, and I think that's part of the reason why we continue to go on and on about it is because there's never been a, I think, a bigger ethical question In our lifetime.

Or such a cascade of ethical questions.

Very quickly. Yes.

Yeah. It's like questions that humanity didn't have to even answer. Now I need an answer today and then tomorrow, and then I have 4 more the next day, and then I have 7 more the next day. And it's like just cascades. And ironically, if your favorite topic was about how the brain works, what's ironic about AI is it literally mirrors so much, not perfectly, but the way our neurons work is the same way a neural network works.

And it's stealing our brains. Yeah. And have you changed your mind about anything this year?

Well, let's do this this way. Do you think I've changed my mind on anything this year?

You know, I didn't know what was in your brain, what was in your mind when we started this podcast as much as I do now. So it's hard to know. Like, I know what you've changed your mind from your spiritual crisis, but I don't know if you've changed your mind Since we've started talking?

I feel like I've become a little bit more fluid.

I can see that. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that where I've always been interested in what others have to say, I feel like AI is kind of a good example of where I went from like, it's cute and fun, to like, holy cow, this is amazing, to holy cow, I'm scared to death of it. to holy cow, we could leverage this to do more than we ever thought possible. And like each of those vines that I swung from, kind of let go of one vine and grab the next, is taking me much deeper in and the nuance of it. I've certainly, like, I still don't feel that AI is the right thing for humanity, but I do feel that since it's here and it's becoming so critical as part of my work, and I think it's about to become critical for our whole society's work, I feel like this call to figure out how we can ethically coexist with it.

Actually, you've changed a lot in your views on AI. Remember in the beginning I would talk about it and I feel like it was more of like a, oh, Melody and her AI, you know? And I think in the beginning you were using it, but your team really Like you were kind of like, I felt like you approached it like you do social media of like, I don't want to deal with that too much. That was what I felt.

And I actually still have people on my team that feel this way. I did feel that offloading my creativity or my work ethic was taking my strongest suit and essentially I thought I was doing away with it. And I've learned a lot since about how to combine my creativity and work ethic. With agents. So when we first started the podcast, there were a couple episodes that— thinking about some of the relationships that you've had and the way that you had approached some of the ways that you'd been wronged. I feel that in your current state of mind and some of the things that have happened, you know, we've already addressed a bunch of them earlier in this particular podcast, but I just feel like where you're at right now, I don't think you would deal with those things the way that you did previously, or at least live as rent-free in your head as some of them did. Not to say that they wouldn't be as important to you. I just feel like there's been some interesting, and I say interesting, some really beautiful developments in the way that I see you sussing out your emotions and feelings, which you've always been very close to regardless of antidepressants or previous to any of the other stuff we talked about.

But I just feel like if I had to guess, it's that The way that you deal with being wronged would be much less.

This is so top of mind for me right now, Curt. I actually made a video about it for myself earlier this week because I am kind of more thinking through the why. Why did I feel that way so many times? I can count on my hands how many times, but why? And I've really started to dive deeper into understanding, like, it's not a them thing. Like, they were always who they were. It's a me thing of not understanding myself and not trusting myself a lot of the time. And right now I feel like I trust myself and my gut more than I ever have.

There you go. And I think you've always loved yourself, but that trust sort of adds another layer to the love of yourself that I palpably witnessed. So yeah.

And especially since the past 3 months, I've noticed that Just because my brain doesn't always catch up. Like, my brain sometimes stays scared and stuck far back versus where I'm actually at. And I'm starting to have my brain catch up because I'm taking the time to actually think through things and not just ruminate on things.

Ruminating.

I did a lot of ruminating.

You used to do a lot of that. And that's where I was saying it wouldn't be so devastating. I think it wouldn't be so ruminating is probably—

It wouldn't be so devastating either.

Because You're not ruminating on it.

Because I understand it's not— they didn't do something to me. It's just I don't like to be fooled, but I'm the fool a lot of the times because I know who somebody is. My senses tell me, and sometimes they might even tell me, but I just want to desperately believe the best in people always. And that part is not changing, but I definitely have better boundaries around it.

I don't even know how to say how well I understand what you're saying.

Which one of us is more likely to accidentally offend the audience if they were to be offended? I feel like it's you personally.

Yeah, my filter could use some work, although it's shocking to say this, I've gotten much, much better than I used to be.

But because I'm also— I've been doing videos a long time, and really I think very much about I'm always thinking ahead, like, could I offend anybody in the way that I say this, and would I care? And if I would care, I don't say it that way. But if I don't care, I say whatever I want, right?

If I do sense that coming, I usually say, I'm about to say something, I hope you don't take this as too crass. I'll try to like— but I'm like, I still have to ask.

Nothing you've said has ever offended me, and I'm on the lookout.

But it's for the audience, you know? I always wonder, like, like, I—

yeah. What do you think You are most likely to challenge me on?

You know what? We had one offline once. I still hold the same position, and we disagreed a lot on, and I challenged you on AI tools that our employees use being owned by the business versus by themselves and reimbursed through the business. And that's one that I would have no problem challenging you on.

Oh, I still believe in what I said.

Yeah. And I think that we could even do an episode about it if we just wanted to fight publicly, but The fact is, is like, it's one of those things like, okay, so you just believe that and I believe that. Okay.

It's not even important. Like, yeah, it's not really, it is, it's not that I reimburse my employees. They actually use our company AI through Teams. Like I just have everything in our company, but it's less about keeping tabs on people and more about making sure we're all aligned on the same page and that everybody's skills are in the same realm and stuff like that. So we should talk about that, how we've set it up in the future.

I'm doing my very first company-wide workshop Actually, sorry, I'm not inviting the devs to this one because it's going to be too low level for them. This coming Tuesday, I actually have my very first workshop. I did a workshop with Maddie, our marketer, and she's like, Curt, you've blown my mind like so many times, time after time. I didn't know you could use AI this way. And that's when it occurred to me, I've learned one thing a day for X number of days, and I just keep assuming that that's just one little insignificant thing or That everybody's probably having the same sort of pickup. So anyway, she kind of went to the company and was like saying things to people. And then she basically came back to me and she's like, Curt, we need to do this weekly.

That's what we do in our company. Like I've been on it for over a year, maybe a year and a half now that we do a lot of trainings on it. But the last training I did was not me at all. I made everybody learn the Claude basic course that they offer for free. that you can get certificates in because I'm teaching them things like that I teach differently, and sometimes I miss the basic, like the very basics that we assume people would understand. So that's one thing that they did, and I hated it, but I did it too. What do you think I could challenge you on?

Well, that's one of that, like that particular topic, I think you were the original one to challenge me on.

Yeah, we'll have to have an episode on that because that is one challenge, but it's not even like a Challenge.

I just remember that was the one where like we both dug in our heels hard and we're like, no.

Was that in the summer though? Was I going off meds and were you in the middle of your— I feel like we were probably both at a low.

Yeah, that could be. But I mean, yeah, it's one of those things where like we both vehemently disagree with each other, but also it probably couldn't be less consequential, particularly in like a soul proprietor feeling.

But it would be fun because I think we would both be like, wait, what were we talking about?

Oh, I remember very well.

I mean, I remember, but I think it would be like anticlimactic.

Oh yeah. When we get to the end. Well, yeah. But as far as soul proprietor stuff, I got to be honest with you, Melody. This is definitely in an attempt to get out of an echo chamber. I feel that I found myself in an echo chamber with you, and I don't see it as a negative, to be honest. It just— you and I both value some really important things Equally, I guess, is the word. And so be it.

I think we need to have more guests on that are open to debate, that can debate us on some of our things a little bit.

And that's the thing about Bobby Walker that I like, is that while I am vehemently disagreeing personally with him, I am actively interested in understanding his thoughts and things. And so even when we had him on, it's not like we're sitting here like Challenging each other on it. It's like, I want to see the world through your eyes. Can you please paint a picture for me? And as he's saying it, I'm challenging myself. And while I'm not necessarily coming over to his way of thinking, it just helps me feel better about knowing, like, one of the statements he made that I think is so important is like, people think that if you're an atheist, you have nothing that holds you to a moral standard, which, by the way, my religion did when I was a kid, grew up thinking like, if someone Someone doesn't believe in God, they might as well just be a murderer. There's nothing. And Bobby comes on and just shattered that thought. So in that sense, I like got, and I'm like, and I knew Bobby long enough to know that that was a foregone conclusion.

It wasn't like I learned it on the episode, but those kinds of conversations for me are just great to keep myself sharp. And I love those.

Who changes their mind more easily? I feel like I do.

Oh, that's funny. 'Cause I was going to say, I think I do. All right.

Oh, really? I think we're both open to changing our minds, but I feel like you're more confident in your belief system. So when I think of how do I change my mind, it's like I'm always changing based on like the more information I'm gathering. It's not like my belief system changes. So I was going in a certain direction with that.

I like this question here. Who would survive longer without owning a business?

Well, me, because I've actually survived without owning a business. Before I started another business. I had a whole year off one time. That's my guess, at least.

I think you've proven it the best.

I have proven it the best, but in practice, like sometimes I dream of not having a business because it sounds really cool and fun. I don't have a job in that dream, by the way. I just have total freedom.

Yes. So as we had our conversation about AI, we didn't really, I don't think, dive too far into the utopia that could be that, that Most likely will not be. There's AI forecasters saying that economically, the economic engine of the civilized world is going to be AI and robots. And then from that, because economics will drive economics, it'll just go beyond all countries. In that sense, humans won't be able to really provide that meaningful of an economic driver to the world. And if that were the case, I have since— so the reason I like that question is because I've been having some pretty serious fantasies about waking up and only being concerned with my family, my bike, my friends, my community, my church, my God, all of those things, and having zero distractions of how am I going to eat? How am I going to keep the roof over my head? How am I going to feed my employees? How am I going to make sure that my business does right by its customers? How are we going to progress strategically to the next level? And while that was a really, really fun part of my life up to this point, the fantasy is, oh man, I think I could let go of that and just double down on all this other stuff.

But as I said, we would have to untrain our brains so hard, Curt. Like, I always thought every time I've sold a business, I've always thought that like I was ready for it and that everything was going to be great and I'll just do my art or whatever. And that is never, ever the way it goes because no matter how much I prepare my brain for something, When you're sitting in the space of nothingness because you don't have that purpose anymore that you've had forever, it's much, much harder than it seems like it would be. And imagine that on a worldwide level. Like, we don't know what we are without work.

Going back to offending the audience, I live in an area where there's a lot of Native American reservations, and we kind of did this to the Native Americans where we economically told them, hey, you don't got to worry. We'll give you, make you a sovereign nation. We'll provide for you these things. And when that drive disappeared from one of the most, you know, powerhouse of a cultures, like, I guess I just look at it and go, if Native Americans took the turn that they did, what do the rest of us have if that happened to us? And so that's actually been something that's on my mind a lot. We need to be able to make meaning outside of Economic driving.

And I don't think we've been good at that up until now. Like, because we don't know any other way. Most of us have had to work. And even those who don't have to work, they still find their meaning in making more money. You know what I mean? Like, they find meaning in weird things that we mock most of the time. So, okay, let's ask a final question. A year from now, what do you hope we're talking about that we haven't been talking about? today, or that we're not talking about today? That's a hard question, actually.

I have such a sad view of the future. I'm really worried about the future. I, for the first time, have thought to myself, do I need to pull my children aside and apologize to bringing them into this world? I mean, I can't believe I just said that out loud, but that's, that has been a thought about some of the stuff that I'm worried about coming. What I hope we're talking about in a year is that this hockey stick of superintelligence and the ability for The trickle-down effect of it. I hope that we're talking about how, you know, cell phones, we made them and they made our lives supposedly better, but they made it worse. Social media supposedly made our life better, but it made it worse. All these technological improvements, like, you know, you could say the way that we're doing GMO and foods and stuff like that, like we improved it, but we made it worse. Vehicles.

Now we can get around really fast and far, but like, we're not exercising as much. Like, I would love to say in a year that we go, finally, we made a technology that truly made it so that we as humans could focus on society, things that really matter, people, because now we don't have to worry about, you know, just getting the basics of life or working really hard. And ironically, it was all this big scare from AI and this economic inflation that went through the roof and had us all more stressed out about money than ever before. And then all of a sudden, in a year's time, everything's great and we're all focused on society. That's what I hope we're talking about in a year.

I would love to say that that's what I hope. And as you were talking, I was like putting holes through every single word you said in my brain because we both know too much right now. But I think I would actually be more selfish about it. And I would say, I hope a year from now, Yeah. We're talking about how much our businesses have grown because of how we have grown, but in more sustainable ways, or that we're taking care of— we're able to do things for people on a bigger scale. Or like, I just hope that instead of just on a treadmill, the business treadmill, I hope that we have the space to be more creative and free and to focus on the people more and not the things that we tend to get involved in, if that makes sense.

I guess I just don't see the world going that a business is going to make much meaning. As a business owner who's always made so much meaning out of business, I'm just, I guess, mentally preparing myself for the fact that a business will make so much less meaning in the world. And that's one of the founding members of Soul Proprietor Podcast. Like, I'm not saying that as like a, you know, doomsdayer, I think I want to come back to that though.

I want to come back to meaning because I feel like some of that has been taken away from me and I've always been so purpose-driven. And I feel like I still am, but my values in my business are not always aligned with that anymore because it's gotten really murky and fast. And I would like to slow down a little bit while also still doing meaningful work because we know that I can't just stop or my brain will start to do the thing. So that's kind of what I hope for. And do you see us still doing this podcast in another year?

Oh my gosh, yes. I think this podcast is going to become more and more important, you know, because the funny thing is, is that of all the things that AI is going to be really good at automating, the idea of business and the person who needs to direct the economic, you know, sure, there'll be a lot of creativity and ability to carry things agentically through AI, but I actually think that business owner is probably one that won't be taken over. So I think it'll be important for us. The problem is, is that I think most business owners, the people who opt to stay in business, are going to do it for the love of the game.

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

Or else they'll get put out of business by someone much bigger, and they are going to be managing not people. I don't think they'll be managing people.

Can I tell you something funny that Bill Burr, the comedian, I heard him say the other day? And I'm not going to say it like him, but he said, Like, why aren't we building an agent who can be CEO? Why are we replacing some, all the humans in the work? Why aren't we replacing the person at the top? Because that's what AI would be good at, like making decisions that an empathetic CEO at the top. And he's like, because then you don't have to replace all the humans. But he's like, well, it's, but we're not doing that because the AI is like for the CEO and the shareholders to make more money. It's not to help us in humanity necessarily. He said it way better. I'll send you the clip.

Now, he's obviously a comedian.

He's a comedian, but he said something very smart and wise. I'm like, why don't they just replace the top person?

Well, first off, the things that AI is best at is repetitive, mundane work.

So far, it's a good thinker.

Let me just say it this way. The AI we currently have that we know is going to exist in the future is— that's what it does. One of the hardest things it's going to be to automate is strategic thinking over time that benefits maybe Humanity, where a CEO is like the one who's economically investing in the robots and the infrastructure and is trying to like—

He's not trying to help humanity though. A CEO doesn't help humanity. It helps shareholders.

Yeah. Their own stakeholders. Let me just say this though. Someone has to pay for all the power, the robots, the infrastructure that yes, it is faster, smarter, cheaper than a human. But the fact is, is that there is no entity of AI that can just invest the money that costs for the infrastructure. And so therefore somebody has to be, even if they offload the CEO responsibilities, the person who is the financial one to gain from the infrastructure putting in place that's doing whatever that particular business does, they have to be sure that whoever's doing it is A, not in it just for the bots, that they're not running rogue. And then of course, for— that's the humanity part that I'm talking about.

This is where I get really dreamy about it, because I can imagine that if we do have control of it, then we could train it to have the limitations of being an empathetic, for-the-people kind of CEO.

Yeah. But the thing is though, is that the CEO, whoever's investing in architecture, also needs to know that their best interest, whether it's a bunch of stakeholders or stockholders or Anything else. They just need to know that if I'm going to offload strategy to AI and have it economically run it, I still am the economic beneficiary of all this, and I need to make sure that I don't get upside down on it.

I don't like business. You just reminded me. Well, yet I continue to do it and will probably always do it as long as I am able. Curt, it has been such a pleasure to do these episodes. I still hope we can get Matt and Rachel to come on for the 50th. episode. And if not the 50th, then the 100th or 75th.

I'd love that. I'd love it.

I think it would be so fun. And I'm really grateful that they've supported us in our podcast journey. And I'm grateful that I've done this with you. I feel like a much stronger person having you in my corner in the podcast, just knowing that there's one other person in this world who believes similarly to me and what my values are. When I go off to like a business conference or something like I'm going to next week, I feel like more stronger in my convictions that it's okay that I feel a certain way about business, that even if other people don't.

I agree. I have learned from you so much about the idea of systematizing with love. That's what I feel like I've gotten from you. So—

Thank you. I already said you were— I felt like you were in my corner, so that was your compliment. Thank you, Curt. We will continue on next week on another episode of The Soul Proprietor.

Thank you so much, Melody. We'll see you next week. Thanks everybody for joining us at The Soul Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many others. If you want to engage with us at our website and maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear on the podcast, feel free to go to soulproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.