The Birth of Soul Proprietor: The Business Misfits

I started paying by paying my assistant 350 an hour because that's what she requested. And I was like, this is the best thing ever. That's where the issue comes up. Because not everybody thinks of integrity the same way that we do.

Welcome to the Sole Proprietor Podcast. I'm Curt Kempton.

And I'm Melody Edwards.

Each week, we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.

Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are welcome here. About the workaholic episode. And I know that we're recording, but they can delete this. And I was thinking, like, wait a minute, am I. If I'm taking 20 hours a week just to hold a baby right now and then go pick up my daughter and do this, am I really a workaholic since.

But I default, that automatically takes you off the workaholic list.

Yeah, but my default brain is workaholic, so I might not be a workaholic in practice all the time. Right now, Matt thinks I'm a workaholic. If he sees me on a computer, he thinks automatically. That's what she does all day. Forever with the baby. Hello. Greetings. Why don't you do the greeting? You do it so well.

Hello, Melody.

Hello, Curt. Whoa.

He's saying, we did know when they came to the podcast that we were going to do it.

Listen. I am listening. So.

Hello, Melody.

Oh, hello, Curt. How are you today?

I am doing great. I'm actually kind of excited about today's top topic, just from the perspective that both had this down and something we discussed for basically the whole time we've been doing this, we have finally circled around to being able to talk about what the ROI on integrity is in business. In business. Yeah. Small business, particularly. Probably every podcast has that disclaimer that we do because we have small business experience. But I do think it's important because integrity on Wall street is like, you better get your shareholders their earnings, you know, which.

Doesn't have a ton of integrity in it. But we talked about this in one of our previous episodes about how maybe we would do a topic about, is there any integrity. Is there any reward for integrity on Wall Street? Not prepared to have that topic discussion today. But as far as, like, an entrepreneur who starts a business, there's a lot of pressure to perform for your family. You're doing multiple roles. There's a lot of opportunity to cut corners and do things to maximize profits, and a lot of things that no one else will ever see just because it's a small business. So I'm really excited about this. To kind of beat it up with.

We're nerds. Integrity nerds.

We should probably start by just defining what we mean when we say integrity. Integrity can mean a couple things. Like, does your business have any integrity? Could be just like, does it provide value and will it last through the ages kind of thing. Strong.

Strong.

But obviously that's probably not exactly what we're. I mean, although we all want that we want to talk a little bit more about. So maybe. Melody, would you mind defining what you mean when I say, say, do you think there's an ROI on your integrity in business?

My perspective on integrity is it's that voice that never lets you do anything wrong. I have way too much integrity in business. I don't even want to say this. It sounds horrible. Let me start. Delete whatever I'm saying right now, because I need to be more thoughtful about how I say that. Actually, Curt, I'm going to pass it to you. What do you think for you, what is integrity in business?

Well, first of all, I have to say that integrity means different things at every different level. So not strikingly different things, but there's like a leadership level. There's things that we can be really transparent about as leaders that would be inappropriate to be transparent about outside of leadership. Right. Where I would say transparency is part of integrity. Transparency doesn't belong everywhere. Now, honesty can also be a tough one at the leadership level versus standard. Standard level.

And then there's the culture level. Right? We have a culture of being honest, and I think that that's important. There's also a way of, when you're coaching someone through something, how to share it in a way that's maybe a bit softer. And some might say that are binary or black and white, that you're not being as honest by maybe working on things. But you definitely have to be honest within yourself, and you have to make sure that you're not, I think from an integrity standpoint, doing things to do harm through lies and through unethical behavior. Now, unethical is a whole nother, like, word that we could define. But I keep thinking in my mind about when I think of integrity is I've promised something to my customer that I deliver above and beyond. I've promised something to my employees that I deliver and beyond.

I have something as a leadership team that we need to all agree upon and when it comes to our values and stuff, and we have to be true to those things. And then we also have some Businesses, we have like a whole supply chain and vendors and things like that. And there's actually ethics, integrity that goes in there. So I don't want to make it sound like I believe that integrity is a word that you is a chameleon. You can define it different ways, but I do think that integrity can mean different things at different parts of the business.

I really liked your definition basic. I promised something to my clients, I'm going to give them what I said very minimum. If I promise something to my employees or to my family. Like my integrity is everything to me. When I think of that, I'll. I think about. I'll tell a story of when I had my old business and I had to repossess it. One of the things that happened when I repossessed it was the guy I took the equipment from, which by the way, was legal.

He claimed to the, the cops that I had stolen things from him from the office. But it was a civil matter. Everybody calm down. It worked out. But because my integrity was so important to me and has always been important to me, the thought of any customer or client or anybody thinking that I had done anything outside of my right thing to do killed me. And one of one or two of my clients did believe this person. And it really impacted my view actually of how I viewed clients after that. Because I really had trusted the relationship that I'd built with these people over sometimes a decade.

I'd see them twice a year or something, but like they knew me, they knew Melody. Melody has integrity. And then because of something, somebody telling a story in a different way, they trusted him. And that's happened to me a couple times where people can, they. They have their own version of a story and that's okay. But if it's impacts my integrity or how people perceive, and maybe this sounds like I only care about how people perceive me, that's not what it is. I always try to do what's right as I perceive right to be so moral. I don't want to hurt people.

I want to do the best that I can for people. And if somebody doesn't think that about me, I can't change their view. But it feels really awful.

Yeah, it does. I will say that I. I share this with you and that comes out sometimes in the form of people pleasing and in the form of really reputation management. But truth of it is, is that when you desire to do good and people interpret something that you did as doing harm or even worse would be like underhanded, right?

Yeah, because.

Because it's not just doing harm. It's like doing harm, but sneaking it. When that interpretation comes along, it. There's a lot of like what could I have done differently? How did this happen? Because this isn't me. And this person has good reason maybe even to feel the way that they do. And I do share that with you. I think that's a really good point.

And there's nothing you can do sometimes like it. We. Maybe it's because we put so much energy into being good people who care about other people and doing what's right. That takes a lot of energy. I. I don't know if being a villain takes as much energy as being a good person does.

I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends on how much Jiminy Cricket your conscience is.

Oh yeah, that's you.

I. I think that you, you just brought up a good point that I want to. I think this is actually needs to be a central piece of our discussion today. You only have to hu little part of your body to be in mass amounts of pain. Right. I think it was Stephen Covey and the seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He talks about the idea that everybody has an emotional bank account that you can make deposits into. Deposits come slow and steady, but withdrawals come fast.

And I remember that as a kid, like I would put tiny little amounts of money in my bank account and then I would go buy a mountain bike or I would go buy a computer or. And it would be like, dang, it took me forever to get that balance up there and I just smashed it. And I think our integrity is very similar. Right. And there's another piece to what you're talking about in that repossession and I. You didn't get to this point. I want to make sure I understand when you said that you started thinking less of your customers that were easily. Maybe they were.

I didn't think less of my customers. I rethought my relationship to clients because I had always, always put that relationship ahead of everything. I would go above and beyond for people even if it meant missing my daughters something at school because they needed that. They had this emergency, they were having a party or something. I just did a lot. And I fel felt like when I was giving of myself, even though they were paying me, I was still making them the priority. And it was people pleasing of course. But I also felt like.

But now they trust me. They know that I'm trustworthy. Even as I'm saying all of this stuff, there's this divide in my Head of this is just 100% people pleasing. Integrity is people pleasing. Now in my head that.

And that's dangerous. That's a really dangerous correlation to make.

Well, I know but I'm like, I guess it doesn't take much to lose your integrity in others eyes. Especially if you do something that is wrong and you've always, maybe you've always done. I mean this happens to politicians all the time where they do one thing and then like their reputation is. Yeah.

I mean a building could take 40 years to build and the fire could have it gone in in less than an hour. Right. Like, I mean a wrecking ball can undo a decade of work in just one swing. So I think that, I think that integrity does fit into that category. I want to share a story similar. It's. I wasn't involved in any way. It was a dear friend of mine and then I, I made the mistake of inserting myself when I shouldn't have.

But the point is that I had a friend who, who had a bunch of great kids and in fact one of their kids even worked for me at one point. And I just thought the world of this family, they're just such a good model family. And I still feel that way about the parents and basically all the kids. But I didn't realize that one of the kids had been molesting all of the other kids and doing horrible mental st. Stuff to them to make them not tell. Now this kid was born with the ability to manipulate beyond. Like when I went to the courtroom and heard as this stuff came out and heard what he did to contain amongst his brothers and sisters what he was doing. I mean seriously diabolical.

And I'm talking about a 15 year old boy at this or 12 year old boy. They couldn't write in their journals. If they did in their journal, he would punish them, he would threaten them, he would come get them in the middle of the night and torture them. And. And so what happened is he had gotten these, his brothers and sisters like really like unspeakable as such a heavy topic. But anyway, the thing is, is in the court it came out that these, these kids had sort of been able to repress in their minds and sort of close off and disassociate with all the things that he had done. And it came back to one of the girls and she went back to her journal and she was able to read like she saw the torn out pages that her brother had torn out. She had seen, you know, she couldn't.

So she would leave Clues for herself. There was a color coding and she remembered it and she read she that color code. I'm supposed to remember what that means. And then she shared it with her sister. And her sister's like, no. Oh my God. And I've never understood the human brain to do this before until I really got to this family. But these girls all reminded each other of what they had been through and they got up the courage to tell their parents what had happened.

Now this is many years after the fact. Many, many years later on, I inserted myself to try and see if I could find out more that the boy would actually admit to what he had done. And it's a whole nother story we can get into another day. But the point is, is that he had actually built villain. He had built this whole infrastructure network of horrible things that were also wired in this hiding thing. Well, when the parents found out, years he was married and he had babies of his own. Now, as the grandparents, this is a really tough spot. You love your grandkids, you love your kids like, and you love the kids that were abused.

And you know, this other one, maybe he's not doing anymore and maybe they're safe, but maybe they're not. I don't know. So they felt they had to speak out. So they call. They call the young man and say, hey, we've heard about what happened. And he's. And he just went crazy on no way. No way.

Melody. It was a fast conversation that basically the hinges of this family's relationships all swung on. And he went to all the extended family, this young man, married young man, went to all the extended family immediately. That was the mistake. The parents wanted to sort of keep it to the family and try and figure things out and see what they're going to do. Well, he left that home. He stormed out and he called everybody and said, just so you know, my parents have made up this lie about me, and my siblings made up this lie. I don't know why they're going after me.

And what did he do? What's crazy is that by him doing that first, he was able to turn his grandparents against their own parents and the grand other grandchildren. And basically this family has now become completely isolated. I tell you the story because integrity is an interesting thing with its ability to destroy it quickly and in a very rash way. Like if you were the grandparent and someone reached out to you and said that, like the way that it worked. And by the way, it's not just grandparents, all the aunts and uncles and everybody but there's like, well, what? Look, he came out, and I heard from him first, so this is the side I'm going to sit on. Yeah, but if you sit for just a couple seconds with it, you'd be like, why in the world would these parents want to destroy their own child?

That I've raised.

Yeah. That I've raised and that I've brought up to be such.

Yeah.

But for some reason, that logic has completely not even made it to the surface.

I think it's. People don't want to be involved, and they don't like uncomfortable things. I'm help. I'm dealing with this with a friend right now whose father just passed away. And the day before he died, he changed his will and his trust, and he had a. He had cancer. And I think they knew he was dying, but he didn't leave anything to his children. He left everything to his niece and who lived with him.

So just the fact that somebody the day before is changing their will or he passes away, the whole situation is really wild. But again, the rest of the family doesn't want to get involved. They don't want to. The family is hard always. And most people don't want to have issues with their family. They don't want to talk about hard things and integrity. Like, I think I don't know about you. In my family, I am the person who will talk about hard things, and I don't like being that person.

And it is integrity for me. It's like, I can't ignore something that's wrong or something that needs. Like, I just can't. I can't let something like that go. And there's a lot of people in my family who don't like to talk about hard things. Like, that's not what they want to do. And I see it in a lot of other families, too. There's usually, like, one child who is the truth teller, and it's not a comfortable role to be in.

And I wish my gut. I think of it as integrity. I don't know if that's what it actually is, because when we started this conversation, I was like, yeah, I want to talk about that. And now it's gone way deeper in my. Like, I'm thinking, what really is integrity now?

Yeah, Well, I feel like integrity, if we go back to sort of the earlier definition of maybe keeping your promise to your customers, your employees, your culture and all that, and living true to your values and being transparent to the extent that it's appropriate, that's sort of the definition I'm running with right now. But I think that the fragility of integrity is so important in this discussion. Because one customer review or one indiscretion with an employee, or one. I had an employee after I sold my company. It was like just a few days after I sold my company, I had an employee go into someone's house and steal a diamond ring off a bathroom counter.

And anyway, as the one that stole the heirloom jewelry from my customers, well, maybe they're related.

He got caught pawning it. But I knew that guy for years and I never would have ever thought. I mean, and he passed background checks and of course he did, because he's a great guy.

And. Yeah. Here, can I read you the definition that I probably should have read before this episode? Living in alignment with your values, doing what you'll say you'll do, even when it's inconvenient, unseen, or costly. So we are right in line. It says honesty, telling the truth and not misleading others, even when lying would be easier. Consistency, acting the same way in private as in public. Accountability. Taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others or making excuses.

Moral courage, which I was just talking about doing what's right even when it's unpopular, uncomfortable or risky. And reliability, following through on promises and commitments. So I think we're. We're good. Like, we.

Yeah.

Have kind of mentioned all those things already.

Yeah. Well, to tie my long story back, to make sure that it kind of aligns with this, is that integrity can be one of those things where, like you said, it's inconvenient to tell the truth. Right. So sometimes we have this piece inside of us that would rather not think that this guy that just called me and told me this is really a monster, but without realizing it by accepting that he is not a monster, so that it's more convenient and comfortable for you. You need to understand that what you are now saying is, is that the sisters and the brothers are all liars.

Yeah.

And the parents are trying to ruin their son's life. And I think that that's the kind of thing that we disconnect sometimes in our integrity, is that we say, here's the story, here's the value I'm going to cling to. This is what's true. Yeah, I heard it. I'm going to go with it. But. And I'm going to be true to that. And it's not convenient, but I'm going to believe it.

Well, actually, maybe you are believing because it's the most convenient truth. That's been put in front of you. And maybe you need to like, just take a second and realize what acceptance of this. You also are saying by accepting this truth, for example. And we could just really quickly touch on spirituality if I was to accept Jesus as my God. Like, I don't think a lot of people think of this, but you're now saying Muhammad is not the true prophet.

But when you rejected Muhammad, you're rejecting millions and millions.

Yeah, like, but do you even have enough information to say he's not? I don't know that integrity requires us to like constantly learn everything before we take a stand. But would it be too much to know an hour worth of information about Muhammad?

I think that would be a. I mean, if we're going to make judgments about other religions or prophets, we probably should know more about them before we do that. But I think most of the time, if you believe in something deeply like Christianity or a certain political group, it's not about think you're not going to look at the other side. That's the whole point. It's. There's comfort in feeling like you have control because you understand your facts.

So you just basically illustrated what I think we should be with the fragility that you pointed out comes with. With integrity, because integrity can be wiped away in a moment. I think part of what we owe ourselves when we do cling to things is to understand that by clinging to this thing, I'm saying no to these things. Do I know enough about these things to know I'm good with that. And I think that most of us and politically is a great example. Like, I know what the conservative talk show host told me that Democrats believe. So they're. I'm good.

I know. And same, you know, obviously if I listen to the Democrat talk show host, he talks about the stupid conservatives. It's an element I want to. To our discussion today because we really are going to be talking about roi with ethics or with integrity. And with that discussion, I think it bears out that we discuss a little bit about because anecdotally we hear the stories. We hear the story that Honest Abe, he was overpaid and he walked 500 miles and then he walked 500 more. Just. No, just kidding.

No, he. He walked back and paid someone back a penny or something. Right. Anecdotally, it makes us feel so good. I think the argument I want to make with you today, Melody, is that I don't think you'll actually get. I think you'll have those anecdotal really Warm moments, having a integrity filled business. But I don't believe that integrity is going to be a large driver of your bottom line. We all like to think that we want to buy the thing that's sourced with the most ethics.

Right. Honestly, when you're at Walmart picking out the shirt, did you not think, did you really think, okay, this is, this one wasn't built with slave labor. Right. Or you know, I'm assuming most people value not having things produced by slave labor. When I am trying to pick the computer I'm going to use, I think about the features, I think about the value that that computer is going to bring to me. But do I think about is this company coming about that I'm buying from? Are they ethical? I'm not blaming anybody for that. I'm just saying my point is that we can be as ethical as we want to be. It's going to be exhausting to try and like hold everyone else accountable to ethics.

Very.

I just want to say, and I'm curious where you land on this Melody. I don't think that if you're trying to do be ethical or full of integrity or any of that stuff, it's number one, not a guarantee of success certainly. And I don't think anyone would argue that point. But it's not going to be a profit driver either. I just don't think it is.

Oh, I wish I could disagree with you. My experience is that it is not a profit driver and, and people don't. I've really stood on my transparency, my authenticity, my vulnerability as I've been building my. Because I really felt that if people were like me they would trust, they would see that and feel that transparency from me and they would build the trust needed to work with our company. I don't feel like that has been an effective way of getting people to work with us because I do.

Because I can get a VA cheaper here or I can get a va.

You can get a VA cheaper anywhere. And I don't think people care about how much somebody's paid. They say they do, but they don't. Not in the way that we talk about it. When I first started home service va, part of the big goal envision was we're going to pay living wages and give really good benefits. We can make real change in people's lives. And even though it's because we've both, we've all had employees where in America it's so hard bring somebody to a place of change, especially when you're just working in home Service or the trades, like, and it's seasonal work even on top of that, like, I really struggled to give my employees what. What I wanted to be able to give them.

And we paid them well, but there were no benefits really. It was really difficult. Whereas in other places like the Philippines, you can make a huge difference in somebody's life with very little money and also support and caring about people in other parts of the world that matter.

But it can be pretty intoxicating to go who for the price I could I get one more for a dollar an hour. Can I get another?

I started paying by paying my assistant 3, 4, 50 an hour because that's what she requested. And I was like, this is the best thing ever. Yeah, but that's not sustainable. It's not, I think, ethical to. Even though they're in a different country that's. You can't live on 350 an hour even in the Philippines.

And I've been there to see like, like when I get there, everything's gonna be so cheap, right? No, they live cheaper. They are living like.

Well, I lived in Morocco when I was younger and on average we could see $5 a day of. After working 10 hours. It's still like that in Mexico. It's still like that in, in depending on what your jobs are. But all over the world, you know, there are people who are just struggling to survive and we think, you know, 3:50 or 4 or $5, like it is cheap to us, it's like a cup of coffee. But I want more. Like, I'm not somebody who just wants money. That's the whole problem.

If I just wanted the money and.

Not like, you wouldn't have to like, think it over so much.

I think about it all the time. Yeah. So let me.

We're in agreement. It sounds like is that it's not going to be a profit driver. So why do we do it? You know. And I think that we could probably categorize it in several different categories, throw out a couple categories that are jumping to my mind and I'm curious, like if you have anything to add or if you subtract from mine. But I think that there's sort of a spiritual slash eternal reasoning and I think that there is a, A law of the harvest, meaning if you harvest good, honest, fair, whatever what you harvest. Like if you sow it one way, you're going to harvest it another way, which will also lead to the surround who you're surrounded by.

Do we believe that though? I'm not sure if I believe that anymore. I was. That is the story I was told.

But yeah, push up against that then.

Yeah, I mean, I have always been told that. I mean, if you give, it's that every. It's karma, and it's all of these things that tell you you just have to. What you give, you're going to back tenfold. It doesn't work that way. Feel strong. I've talked about being somebody who's a giver and who ends up taking the most from the givers is takers. And I don't really get to work a lot with givers.

Like, I would love to. And I know I'm just putting people into little boxes here as if it's.

Like a one or a zero. Either you're a giver, not a giver.

Yeah, well, you could be a matcher. That's the middle one that they talk about where you kind of. Have you ever heard Adam Grant talk about that? He says, you know, givers get and then there's the takers. But then a matcher is somebody who kind of looks for equity. Like, I'll give you something, but there's gonna have to be reciprocity. So, I mean, that makes the most sense. Actually, let me argue a little bit.

For the law of the harvest, I feel.

Is it eternal?

No, the eternal one is different. I think just from a temporal standpoint. You know, the saying in our industry, in the home service industry, is dirty hands, clean money.

Right?

Like, we got. We work hard for our money, and we know.

I didn't hear that.

Oh, okay. I think that I like that you brought up karma, because I think that's. That is probably the best illustration of the. The law of the harvest. I believe that if you do business with people in a good integrity way, you can build up a customer base of rabid fans. I really do. I really think that if people know like, and trust you and you've proven that you can be trusted and you can. You've proven that you are lik from a perspective like that, I will give you what you deserve.

You save yourself the bad press that other companies that have to keep going out of business and starting up a new business, popping up a new business every. Every so often. You make every conversation. You don't have to worry about which story you have to connect to make the lie make in the relationship continue to make sense. And there is a financial benefit. Right. Like if I have people who want to refer me, like, I don't have to pay the marketing dollars as much to bring business and New business. If I have a relationship that's good, they'll repeat business with me that's pretty good.

If I work in a way that' honest and fair. I can also mentally relax. I don't have to keep stories straight. And I think there's a lot of benefit to that. Even if you don't want to say it's financial, I think that that's a huge win.

I don't know if that's true, though, if you do things in an honest way. I can think of so many times when I've done business when I had my home service company and I went above and beyond because maybe there was an issue or something and I wanted to make sure that there was a resolution where it really came down to integrity. Even if I didn't. I'm think thinking of specific times when this happened, and it was very stressful. It made me have to stay later sometimes at jobs to hold on. So I. I don't know, maybe you're talking about it in a different way than I'm thinking about it. But people who.

The plumber who comes and he doesn't charge, he gives you the best friend discount and takes his time and does it right. Like, they don't grow businesses.

No, but that is a little different than what I'm talking about.

Okay.

What I'm talking about is, is if I come in and maximize my profits by telling you something's wrong with your plumbing that wasn really wrong, and you're like, well, I get, okay, I gotta get it done. And I sell you some new stuff, new services, new parts or whatever. We get to the end and I just took out the part that was totally not damaged, but just made extra work. And this is such a weird example, but I get to the end and I'm invoicing and the customer says to me, so can you show me, like, how bad was that clog? Like, can you show me the thing? And you're like, clog. Oh, what did I tell her again? Like, there's the mental exhaustion that comes with remembering all of your lies, keeping them all straight. And then not just in the moment moment, because when I come back later and they call me back, I have to remember the story that I told, that it's easier to remember the truth.

You. And this is yours and my story. Like, if we were the plumber who was holding, like, trying to pull one over on somebody, we wouldn't be able to remember the story, and it would be emotionally like we would be dying. I think most times when I've dealt with people who are like that. I think they enjoy the storytelling, they enjoy these sleaziness of doing that. And I don't think they give it as much thought as we would. I mean, I wish they did. I don't know what, I would love you to debate me on that.

Yeah, I think I would hold steady on that and say that I, I do think that there is a. Someone who's living a double life. In the scripture, in the Bible it says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Meaning I got to be this way for this person, this way for another person. Or I gotta weave this story to appease this person and weave another story to appease another person. So I guess what I'm going to say here is that I agree that there's going to be your pathological liar who for whatever reason that's like where they get their kicks. Right. But I just have to believe that we as humans, and I know that we're.

Of the three things I brought up, we're just talking about the one that doesn't necessarily have a financial. It's a more of a reputational thing.

Yeah.

But keeping my reputation bright when I only have to remember the truth, just whether I can give you the data to prove it or not. I'm thinking I'm not going to have, have. I haven't talked to enough psychologists about this, but I just think that certainly in my mind, and I know you've already said that that's the case for you and me, but I think that in most people's minds, if all I have to remember is the truth, it just takes a huge mental toll off of. And I'm thinking about a specific story. I don't want to get into so many details, but I had a very dear friend that I've found out had a lot of different woven stories that he told different business associates, employees, even his own spouse about what he was doing in business and how he was doing about in business. And there was an investor that I know involved and that investor was getting a certain story. And basically as things started going into the court, he had to start getting a story to stick to. But they all had different, everyone had different stories and he was able to weave all these crazy admins.

And I know in this example I'm talking about just the mental bandwidth of keeping him straight.

Yeah.

But then there's also the fact that at some point the light comes out.

And that is true. Well, we hope.

And the lies that were chosen to weave the most favorable story that would appease the court. Courts necessitated the other lies being told to have to like, be changed.

Right. Yeah. So a really obvious example of where this falls apart.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm just thinking of the famed businessman Donald Trump.

Okay.

He tells lies every single day and makes tons of money. I, maybe this is where all of my. Is he like a different. Is he just like an anomaly? I, I don't feel like he's an anomaly.

Well, there's a certain number of people right now who are screaming their heads Donald Trump says is true.

Yeah.

And they would fully disagree with you. I think that's an important.

Oh, you mean they're screaming at the podcast right now?

Yeah, they're screaming at you right now.

One person? Yes. Yeah, sure, I guess. But I, but I also think it's very easy. Like maybe he has told the truth. I mean, he did say that he's not getting to heaven the other day. So he did tell the truth.

Well, Melody, we can't judge.

Well, I'm not judge. I mean, I am not judging, I'm just saying, stating what he said and based on.

Well, I'll say that you definitely. This is resonating with me is that I have seen a lot of people, Donald Trump or otherwise.

I have seen a lot of just Donald Trump. It's not just your person. I think we've both experienced it.

People who climbed to the top, that you're like, it's not fair.

Yeah, basically.

And I think that that's where I talk about the law of the harvest also being surrounded by like the people that you want. So in Donald Trump's case, if you're willing to tell him everything he wants to hear and do everything he says and everything else, like, you're in good graces. But we learned really quickly when you became president that if someone strays at all as they get new information and if they're willing to call it out, Donald Trump's relationships are very disposable.

Yeah.

I mean, you were the greatest thing ever. You're the best thing that's ever happened. And then all of a sudden, oh, he's a total crook. You know, he's got a new nicknamed and I'll smear you. And you know, that goes back to that mental capacity. So maybe Donald Trump or other people who sort of are fine with whatever it takes to, you know, keep moving forward, financially or otherwise, I think that there's a. Okay, that's fine. But you traded long term friendships that are on real friendship and not your Ability to just go along with everything I say.

So.

Okay, like I said, this particular piece isn't necessarily a financial. It's a peace of mind. It's the ability to be in a friendship and know this person's not here next to me because they have something to gain by being next to me. This person's next to me because they truly care.

I don't think the same.

Same thing as trying to remember all your lies. It's that mental relief of knowing this is just the truth. Like what I'm experiencing right now is just the same truth.

I think people don't. Nobody's really friends with Donald Trump. Those are all strategic relationships that it seems like any. In. In politics. I feel like there's probably a lot of strategic relationships in general, and that's the same in business. Like, there are so many strategic relationships that. And I kind of.

I don't love that part of business, but the whole point of it is.

Yeah, taking shortcuts often is the same as reducing expenses, right?

Yeah.

And so telling a lie might get you more customers. It's not necessarily an expense thing, but it's like the. It's the other side of the coin. You. You deliver what you're going to say. And also you took shortcuts in. In different ways. Whether it's through lying or just misleading, maybe not being transparent, that can lead you to more profits.

And so I think we're both back to where we do agree that having integrity probably isn't going to be a big financial pump into your business. So can I bend the conversation a different way way then?

Sure.

So this is the sole proprietor podcast, and I know a lot of people who listen to this may be firm in their faith, but there's probably a good number of people who are still like, in that I don't know even what I believe part. Right. And one of the things that started sort of pushing me away from my original, like, beliefs, spiritual, religious beliefs, was that if everybody in this room, speaking of the church, is doing what they're doing in order to go to heaven, and that's their motive, in my head, the first thing I went to is, okay, so everybody here has selfish. They want to all go to heaven, and they are not doing the right thing by me, in a way to do the right thing for me. They're not doing it for me. They're doing it so that they can go to heaven. And there's some people who are just laughing right now as I say that, like, who cares? They're doing the right thing, just shut up and let them do the right thing. And I actually spent most of my life just being totally cool with that.

Like that, that was like the number one default response that I was like, that makes total sense. But as I thought about God looking on the heart and the more I thought about sort of what I really believed that my relationship with God was thought, well, maybe this is a fake it till you make it situation. Maybe God just wants us to have integrity at first for the reward and then as we become integrity filled people, it maybe transforms into something else. But to go back to ROI in business, I think that the roi, the idea, this is, this is where I, Curt personally stands. If you've listened to my interview, you kind of know a lot of the foundations of my spiritual beliefs. But I've gotten to a point now where I believe, believe that God, God is trying to figure out, let me figure out who I am. He wants me to discover what I am as a creation. And what I believe is that my roi, it's not going to be financial and integrity.

And also I actually have even gotten past the point of caring at all what the eternal reward is. Whatever the eternal reward is, that's just going to be a byproduct of what I think God really wants of me. And that is the testing I'm under is more of an integral test used differently, more like the strength. Like he wants me to find what my strength are, what my disposition truly is when no one's looking, and how authentic can I be to that? So I have gotten to a point where now I feel that the ROI is knowing who I really am and being true to who I really am, even when that's hard, so that I can be consistent in my marriage. My husband, father, business owner, community member, business associate. Right? All these people will know the same guy. As long as I am not a double minded man, I'm not going to be unstable in all my ways. So the opposite of that is to be single minded and to be stable.

And I think that that to me, the ROI is going to be really hard for me to quantify, but it is palpable.

Yeah, well, return on your energy investment, your thought investment. And, and even if people aren't religious or spiritual, there's so, I mean so many in this people in this world have tons of integrity, some would say too much integrity sometimes and they don't. And so, and they still, like, what is the ROI for somebody who doesn't believe, right? Like what is the point? Like you were Saying like, you're the church. They might be being good because the church, they want that eternal reward. But what is it for somebody who doesn't. Doesn't want that eternal reward? Like, what is the reason to have integrity, especially in business where it really. I don't think it benefits people. Maybe, maybe we're wrong on that.

Maybe there's somebody who can show me the actual calculations for the return on investment for having integrity in business. Business. And I don't mean, like, it's not like there's just integrity or no integrity. There's so much middle there.

Yeah, there is.

But I think for people who really hold integrity to be. To be the most important thing, that's where the issue comes up. Because not everybody thinks of integrity the same way that we do. I don't know how other people think of it, though. Do you know?

Yeah. Well. Well, integrity. Integrity is such a tricky beast because if you hold it really close to yourself, you'll find out almost immediately that everything falls apart. So an employee comes to you and tells you, hey, this. This other employee is really getting on my nerves. I'm trying to work through it. I could use some coaching on how to work with this other person, but it's really difficult.

I'd appreciate if you kind of just kept that between you and me. From an integrity standpoint, this is very clear. I know exactly what to do. Well, the person they have an issue with comes to you and says, hey, quick question. It seems like so and so might have a problem with me. Do you know if they have a problem with me? Well, I can either keep my integrity on the other side or I can lie.

Or you could say, like, I think that's something that you should talk to them about.

That's true. And, and I haven't thought this example all the way through, but I know I've been held in some really tight spots where you're like, you're like, if integrity is the most important thing, I am going to break something here in this moment.

I think I experienced that before we met. Like, we have a client who wants to take. Take, what do you call it, buy out a contract with their va. And I was meeting with the VA to talk to them about what they would want. It is not in my best interest to have him leave the agency. I should not be encouraging him to leave. My integrity, though, tells me, and also my team, my integrity tells me that he is not my possession. He is not the.

The client's. He is a human being who has the ability to Make a decision. And it's put me in a weird position where I had to kind. Even though it goes against my best interest, I had to tell him that he had options and that when whatever he decides, we're going to support him. And that's because of integrity. If I hadn't felt that or the time that I found out I had Covid, when I was flying from Arizona to Massachusetts, I had a layover in Chicago and I needed to take a test because I was going to visit a friend for a couple of hours and found out that I had it. I could have hopped back on the plane, but. And I thought about it, but I.

And this was like 20, 22 maybe, but I didn't. I rented a car and I drove from Chicago, Massachusetts. It took so long. I was so sick. And I. The reason I really did it is because I preach integrity all the time to my team. And they. In the Philippines, like, or anywhere.

Like, Covid was a big deal. It was killing people. And it still does. And if I had been like, well, guys, I have Covid, but I'm going to hop on this plane so I can get home faster. Like, I just couldn't do it. I wanted to desperately. And it's a good story to tell now. It was a miserable, fun adventure.

Yeah. I think that's where it really comes down to, to motivations. Like if you were doing that for some sort of showiness so that everyone look how, look how full of integrity Melody is, I would say, well, you might as well just got on the plane because I didn't realize this was all a self aggrandizing effort, you know, but at the end of the day, like, was that who you want to be? Like, were you coming closer to who you wanted to be by taking that stand, doing what you felt was the right thing and being able to go to bed tonight knowing that you move just a little bit closer to being who you want to be.

But isn't that that frustrating though, that the person that we want to be faces, I think, a lot of hardship because of the decisions that we make.

It's frustrating, but who cares? Like, when you want to get a sharp knife, you have to grind the blade. You have to, even if it's a small amount, if you want to have a hardened piece of steel, you have to heat it up and quench it. Like, it doesn't matter if it's hard, it doesn't matter if it's frustrating. Like, the fact is, is like you're trying to become something somebody in order for that to work, you have to like, you start with a piece of stone and you start chiseling all the parts away from yourself that you don't want. And it sucks. It's a long process. You're going to make mistakes, you've got to own those mistakes. And the sort of the spiritual journey that I'm on has like led me to like, it used to be like, oh no, I'll disappoint God.

Or oh no, my parents might find out. Or oh, this really sucks because someone will think something of me.

Yeah.

But like, that's just, to me so counterproductive because you never ask the most important question, who do I want to be? And if you want to be an integrity filled person, then who cares what the business ROI is? Because when you die, the business's ROI will stay behind.

Well, I kind of, I agree on, in the grand concept of what you just said, I agree that in the end it matters to me who I am and who I'm becoming. And I work hard to become the person I want to be. I don't even know why I want to be a person of integrity and who's. I don't know why I want to be the person that I'm working towards being. Because I've chosen to be one of the hardest. Like, it just, just, it seems really tough in the moment. So I guess when I think of it in a day to day basis and I think of how frustrating it can be when you do have to choose integrity over an easier decision or it just day to day, it's not fun.

No. And also it's very important that it's not. I, I just said it like I'm some tough guy. Like, who cares that it's hard? The fact is, is that that's the mentality I take.

Yeah.

Because in that moment, that short moment, like, I'm still tempted.

Yeah.

That every time. And that temptation is where the sharpening is. It's like, you can make a quick extra buck right now. You can make, make a leap forward at the expense of someone else. Like that is so tempting. And then you have to like, am I willing to exchange how many dollars is it worth to not become who I want to be? And it's. The question is what do I want versus what do I want right now?

And I. And it's also maybe because we aren't motivated by the money as much as other people would be in business, it's easier to say, like, I don't even think they would be Considering this conversation, if you're somebody who's very motivated by the dollar and that's like, what you're hustling to get the money, I don't think that integrity really plays much into that. Maybe it does, but I don't think so.

Well, I'll just give you an example. I'll give you an example just so I can and, like, get off my high horse.

I'm sorry.

Like, whatever. I was at the airport. I was in Salt Lake Airport just a few weeks ago, and I went through security and my bag didn't pass. And, like, they did the sniff thing with the. The thing, the piece of cloth that they put in the machine. And when they did, it came back out, like, I guess like gunpowder or something. I don't know. There's been no gunpowder next to this bag.

I don't know why it didn't pass. So they went and did this other thing, got their supervisor, and while I'm standing there, I don't know who left it behind, but someone left behind this awesome, awesome performance jacket. Like, seriously, whatever the nicest jacket in REI is, this is a Mountain Hardware super lightweight. Like, I'm thinking, like. And it was left on this steel table, and I'm the only one there now. And I picked it up, and it, like, felt awesome in my hand. And I'm like, I could see myself riding my bike this winter with this jacket on. And then I just felt disgusted, hurt.

Go buy yourself one of these jackets. And I know when I went up to the security person who was going to test my bag, when they came back with my bag, I was like, this jacket got left here. I have no idea if they said, this is an awesome jacket I'm gonna keep.

Right.

Or if they put it in a lost and found. I don't know. But I feel good about what I did. The point is, is that I. I had a serious, like, few seconds there where I was like, I just inherited a jacket. And I know that whoever left it there probably was there within the last half hour. And they're probably going to retrace their steps because they got time waiting for their plane, and they're probably going to go try to find it, you know.

Because it was that. That good.

Because it was that good. It was.

Yeah. Well, I know what Rachel can get you for Christmas now.

Oh, yeah. That was a really good. And I even like the color. It was like this, like, off white, like, just really cool with just like, navy blue highlights. Just a few navy. Yeah. Accents. Really nice.

I know that because I had this moment where I envisioned like this would look good on me.

Well, I do want to say it's not like we are talking high and mighty for sure. I don't always live in integrity. I can't think exactly of the times when I don't. But I know I don't with where I want to be. And I guess it does come down to the fact that I want to be a better person all the time. I want to be a person who does the quote unquote right thing and who people can rely on, who they can trust and that I am who I am, who I appear to be. That's important to me. And so I don't want to.

I do definitely made it sound like I am all integrity, practically assuming Saint. It's not that, but I think I. It's a frustrating topic for me because I really resent the fact that I have this thing inside of me that I didn't ask for. I didn't. I choose to be this way now. But it's always kind of been a part of who I am and I kind of wish it wasn't. I know that's wrong to. It's not.

You've said that before.

I know.

I wish you wouldn't feel that way. And maybe I know we're getting close to the end of the time. So let me. Let me just say. And I'm not saying it's the last word. I'm just saying with my whole philosophy. Look, when I was a kid, I thought that if you don't believe in God, there is nothing restraining you from being anything you want to be. I was actually even, I think told that in church.

If I don't believe in God, who knows where I'd be? Like, I'd probably be addicted to drugs and having sex with hookers every five.

Seconds and you'd be a murderer too. Right.

Knowing where you're at right now in your spiritual journey, I'm just going to go ahead and sort of like exaggerate where you're at. But you're not sure if God exists.

Yeah.

So why the heck do you have any integrity? And that's the thought here, is that I feel that people at their core, whatever they believe or whatever they don't believe, there's a reason that every company has a company value without fail that could some way be if they have company values at all, that is somehow going to go back to integrity. Now it might be explicitly be. Most of them will explicitly say my company values integrity, but Even if it's not, we have a company value that we only do deals that are good for both sides to the table. You know what that means we have integrity.

Right.

Like, actually, one of our other ones is that we're transparent. I'm like, I'm covering all my integrity bases here. So the fact is, is that integrity is like the most popular virtue. Value obsession, you could say, when people think what they actually value. And I think that when you say you wish you didn't have it. I'm going to go back to what I said earlier about sort of where I've arrived. As of now, I may depart again somewhere. But right now, where I've arrived, described is that we're trying to become the best version of who we are.

And I think that's what God wants of us. God or not, who cares what the motivation is? The point is, is that that's something I can get behind, is that I want to be the sharpest version of who I don't want to blow it. I've got one mortal life. Whether you believe I have a post mortal life or not, fine. Like, we'll just agree to disagree on that and I don't care. But when you die, you will have worn your life out into the most cozy version of who you are. Do not arrive where you don't want to. To be.

And that's my message here, is that when you say, I wish it wasn't that way. Melody, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be your friend if I thought that you were a shady crazy. You wouldn't have attracted me. And I don't have many friends. Right.

I know you're very friendless. Yeah. And everybody, Everybody wants to be your friend, though, so let's not pretend that.

So I guess all I'm saying is, is that, like, maybe that's something over the time of this podcast I can convince you of, is that you can be grateful that this is. Is how you're wired. And some people might say it's your spirit that God put into you. Some people might say it's just whatever neural pathways you're born with. Some people might say it's an experience that transformed you as a child. And at the end of the day, the most important thing is, is that you are intentionally going wherever your spirit, your neural pathways, or that experience that transformed you as a kid. You have to. It's your destiny.

It's your. It's your birthright to become who you're going to be. And, And I'm grateful. Grateful as far as friendships go, I'm grateful that I'm friends with someone like you.

Oh, thank you. I don't mind all the integrity. I just wish there was a little less. Maybe. Maybe like a smidge less.

I'll keep working on you.

Yeah, but. But I can accept that. I mean, it is who I am. And I think there's just moments in my life where I just. Just like with anything, there are moments in my life where it feels harder than other times. And maybe that's what I'm experiencing right now, today. But it's okay. I'm gonna be fine.

Everything's fine.

Oh, no, that's. Usually I've been married long enough to know that.

Listen, my next quarterly midlife crisis is not due till the last week of December because that's my birth week and it's right after Christmas and it's the new year.

That is a midlife crisis.

Like, that's definitely. So I just plan it out. It's just a part of that week. So.

And for the listeners that don't know, Melody has not. Not quarterly life crisises. Like, don't miss. Hear this. She has, every year, four midlife cross life crisises.

Yeah, but they're mini ones, like baby.

Ones, and it's so that she can keep from having the big one.

Yeah, well, yes. I mean, I would rather have, like, one four little baby ones than one huge one every year. I know that everybody else is thinking, oh, but you only have one midlife crisis. No, you'd be wrong. I believe that I have the ability to have many midlife crises. It's one of my skills. Well, thank you for this conversation. It didn't exactly go where I thought it was going to go because I did think there would be more data involved, like numbers and, you know, it's.

So hard to measure. Like, yeah, I'm a foreign integrity. I'm a 10. Like, and then there's the company numbers, and there's the culture numbers, and there's the employee numbers individually, and then there's. And then there's. Okay, people who are in 8 integrity have an ROI of 10 to 1. Like, what are you talking about? You didn't.

We wouldn't even know. Yeah, we can't know.

But I do want to make sure that those who are listening are thinking to themselves right now, like, if I have integrity, like, am I living to the integrity level that I believe I'm capable of and that I want to be? And am I becoming the person I want to be? Because I think that's the real message here is that integrity is sort of a tricky beast to like, sort of corner exactly what it is. Because in the moment, integrity can mean standing up for someone. Integrity could mean keeping your mouth shut and letting somebody experience something on their own. Like, it can be different things. And the fact remains that however it comes into your life, being true and intentional to what you want to become, that is, you're going to be tempted every day to be a lesser version of yourself and to be a weaker version of yourself. And if you're doing it for whatever motivation, I still think no matter what, it's worthy of you becoming the best version of yourself.

I can accept that definition if we just write on that definition of aiming towards being who you are meant to be and the truest version of yourself and doing right all the time, never letting anybody down. No, I'm just kidding.

And you know what? Like, we didn't talk a, of ton, a ton about it. But like, that's another opportunity. Like when you do falter and make the mistake, like, that's another process of like, okay, I recognize I made the mistake. What am I gonna do with that? Like, because you're not gonna do right all the time. Right. And you are gonna let people down. And sometimes letting people down is gonna be the integrity thing you have to do. And it's hard, right?

Yeah, it's good, this conversation. I mean, it does come up in ways in all of our conversations, but it is fun to talk about it a little bit and sad that we agree once again, for the most part.

Oh, we did. We had a good disagreement there for.

For a minute, for a second. Yeah, we did. Someday it'll happen.

We're gonna fight.

We need to bring somebody here who loves debating.

I've been, I've been working on a few people to bring on. So just for the listener to know, we have some people in the wings that we're getting ready to bring in. One of them is already scheduled and I can't wait to, to fight with that person about capitalism.

Yes. I don't know. Is it going to be a fight? I would look forward to it if it is.

I think that this will be a, a lively one. And then the other one that I'm still working on that I think will be super interesting is sort of the, the concept of full blown atheism and the idea of deconversion process and the motivations for still, you know, being a business owner and true to their word. And on all the integrity, like, discussed today through the eyes of a deconverted Christian into atheism.

Yeah, that's a heavy topic. So I look forward to that fun conversation.

That's always, always fun, Melody.

Yeah. Well, thank you, Curt.

Yeah, thank you all for joining us today. It's been a fun one. Thanks, everybody for joining us at the Sole Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people, people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many others. If you want to engage with us at our website, maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear on the podcast, feel free to go to soleproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.