When Silence Becomes Agreement

Powers that be in this world, in this country, they just want us to fight so that they can keep getting more powerful. It's not helping any of us. I'm not richer as a business owner because of the government. I've never been richer. I'm not better off because all of these immigrants are gone or whatever. Like, that doesn't even matter in my life on a day-to-day level. The things that the country is fighting about does not even affect us.

Welcome to the Sole Proprietor Podcast.

I'm Curt Kimpton, and I'm Melody Edwards.

Each week we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.

Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are welcome here.

Hello, Melody. How are you today?

I'm okay, Curt. I just got back from a trip to Utah. Utah is beautiful and lovely. And man, those mountains, amazing.

I just got done with a trip to Utah.

What?

And the mountains were lovely. I hiked them. They didn't have a ton of snow.

But— Were we in the same place at the same time?

I don't know. My daughter's wedding was down in here in Arizona, but she married a boy from Utah. So we went up to the northern Salt Lake area and we were— I.

Think we were in the same place.

That's hilarious.

Yeah.

Well, we probably could have talked about that with each other.

That might have been nice, but we don't work like that.

I know. Well, my heart's kind of heavy today, actually.

Yeah.

Thanks for asking.

Curt, how is your heart? Is it light today? Is it heavy?

My heart is heavy. There's a lot going on right now, and I feel like I've come into this thing pretty naive in the podcast. I want to talk to you about that today. I know we've talked off the air, so I know that you're pretty similarly going to need to share some things. But when we started this podcast, what was your goals? Let's talk about that for a second.

My goal was talking about all of the experiences that I've had that I didn't think were fair because I had too much integrity and too many values and morals. And that makes me sound so much better than I am actually. And I also have this weird spiritual place that I find myself in. Who better to talk about all of these things than with you? And so it's business therapy and life therapy. Certainly, I just thought like, this is a way to attract the kinds of people that are also people who think about things in a bigger way or hold space for thinking, really. What about you?

When you and I first connected, I had recently really gotten my testimony of God and some things changed from when I was a little kid. And actually it went radical and then it sort of came back in a nicer, more open-hearted way and with some pretty intense study. But I think that one of the things that I learned as I had, you know, before you and I got together was that I always knew politically that there was this like very binary way and not just binary, but like polarizing way of either you're a 1 or a 0, you're a blue or a red, you are a believer or a follower of Satan, you know, like, and that black and white thinking, I think every therapist in the world would tell you it's super unhealthy and it's, uh, it's condescending to the fact that other people can have other experiences other than the ones that you've had. And my eyes were open to that. And so this whole, like, kind of groupthink binary ideology all of that, I wanted to kind of spend some time here talking about the journey that I had, that it's important to see grayscale or color, and talk about some of the dangers of believing that your life's experience is the only meaningful one. And so in this podcast, I think what has made my heart really heavy is that I want to stay neutral by staying quiet. It's comfortable because I know I'm not going to upset anyone else, and I'm going to give everyone their space to like kind of come up with what they need to. But Melody, there's just some things going on in the world right now that I think— it's not currently affecting me directly, but my gosh, is indirectly.

It's like, it's weighing on my heart. And I feel like if I was to stay quiet, and I give people so much space that I don't stand up for anything or say anything about how I actually am feeling, then I feel like I'm allowing the echo chamber of The World to Win, where I want to bring some grayscale to the world and potentially use this podcast as a good way to allow people to challenge— like we've always talked about people challenging their beliefs. I'm not going to try and make anyone a Republican or a Democrat here. I'm not going to try and make anyone a member of my faith or even a follower of Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ can't on his own volition in your study attach himself to you and your life and your moral compass and everything. Like, that's just not my job. Jesus wants me to put the word out there, great, but it's his job to convert you if so. Same goes for Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religious ideology.

Or Melody's lack of religious ideology. I can't convert you to that either.

Exactly. And I think that as we get into today's conversation, I'm going to be super real, and I know you are too. But I just think it's important to sort of set the stage that my hope here is, is that we will challenge the way that we believe so that we land intentionally where we want to land, as opposed to like if this was some sort of podcast for media that we have a target market of a particular ideological belief that we would need to make sure that we have a presupposed destination here. My destination here is to make sure that the law that allows us to do what the law allows us to do, and our ethics— there's what we should believe we should do— they won't always line up in a really pretty way.

I have been pretty angry about the state of our country, where people are at with things, and it's been harder and harder for me to hold space for other people's beliefs and opinions because it's one thing to have a political belief. I grew up very conservative. I have all of those things still in my head because I heard them. They were spouted at me every day when my mother picked me up. It was on the radio, like, but also I live in a very liberal part of the world and I've had those beliefs spouted at me as well, which actually I don't love that I have both of those things coming at me because I don't land on either side. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I'm more conservative. Sometimes I'm more liberal.

And I would say I tend to go more liberal just based on where the rest of the country is at. But that doesn't mean that's what I align myself with. And what I align myself with is my belief system, my value system, the difference between right and wrong. It's so basic. It's like kindergarten level, like right and wrong, you know? And I know there's lots of nuance and there's lots of, you know, very different ways to look at it. I just think that at a certain point, our gut, like we have laws about right and wrong, we have moral beliefs about right and wrong. At a certain point, it just, it is black and white whether something is wrong.

You know, and that's funny because in the religious world, there's this big fight over is there absolute truth? That is a big argument. And it's funny, I just got done talking about grayscale. And I will tell you that there are things that I can't get grayscale on right now. Is it appropriate to kill someone in self-defense to preserve your own life? Some thug is coming after you. I think there's some gray in there.

Yeah, for sure.

But by and large, if you have killed someone, especially premeditated, you're a murderer. I don't know how else to put it.

And you can, like, change your life and go become like a child of God or whatever. Like a lot of people have these crazy life changes, but you're still a murderer. You still took somebody's life.

If I could, Melody, I want to start the conversation just talking about a little bit about foundational beliefs so that we can talk more about some other, maybe more nuanced stuff. But like, I think a lot of us don't even realize about some of the foundational beliefs we have. You talked about riding in the car. I really related to this. Hearing the talk radio going. I'll never be able to take that away. Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog was playing a lot in the car. Heard a lot of that.

And also I heard a lot of Rush Limbaugh.

I heard— I was going to say a lot of Rush. Feminazi will forever be ingrained in my brain.

And so my dad, who is a good man, I associate, you know, Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog with that. When I hear Rush Limbaugh's voice, I think about sitting in the car with my dad going somewhere. And so foundationally, those are some things I grew up with. And I always thought it was weird that someone who had so much good to offer and should have been president of the United States, not that he ran for it, but like that my dad was like, oh, if he could just be president. He sure sounded angry, you know, like all the time.

It was stressful.

It really was. And that always, that tone always hurt me. But likewise, in my spiritual travels, when I talk to people about the Bible, they talk about how infallible, it's the infallible word of God. So I accepted it that way for a lot of years. And it was confusing because I still saw a lot of contradictions about this loving God who was also very angry. This God that expected, you know, one thing, didn't just come out and say it that way. But it wasn't until later that I realized this is a book that was written by men at times it was just a historical commentary on their civilization. And it's not a book.

It's a bunch of different people living at different times, writing in their different journals, if you want to call it that, just so we can put some context on it. Sure, there might have been a scroll or, you know, however they compiled it. But later on, the Old Testament was put together as a book of scripture that the Jews used. And by the way, most of these books were written long after the content of the books actually took place. In fact, in a lot of books, even the author of the book will be said, so-and-so experienced this or something. And it's like, so who's writing this if they're referring to themselves in third person? My point is, is that I actually, at this stage of my life, and I hope that you'll still keep listening to the podcast after I say this, but between the contradictions and the things that I've learned about the compilation of the Bible, the translations of the Bible, the original text of the Bible missing, the text of the Red Sea Scrolls that comes out later and either A, contradicts, or B, is the same exact text but not anywhere near what we have actually gotten our translation to because there was a time when only literate people like royalty had these Scriptures and could manipulate them.

People of power.

People of power have used them to change what they meant or just filter it. The fact that the New Testament, the Gospels were written in many cases, not just a few years, but like many decades after the actual things. And, you know, we take these verses word by word as if they're like honest to goodness straight from Jesus's mouth. And the fact is, is like, Paul, you know, we give him a bye because he was a product of his generation, his time, and he talked about women a certain way, or he talked about slaves in a certain way. And it's like, hey, this is cool because the Bible teaches us how we should properly beat slaves without taking them all the way to death, but just enough. Or, you know, murdering babies in this case is totally cool. Like, I'm sorry, but like, it's not all the word of God. And that has provided so much clarity for me.

To look at the Bible and say, foundationally, I have erased the idea that the Bible is the infallible word of God. And I'm not trying to rip down anyone's faith here, but I'm just telling you that my faith has grown immensely the moment I realized that I am going to have to treat this Bible with some emotional intelligence, and I'm going to have to not dogmatically accept whoever's interpretation handed it to me, and that there is room for me to feel the Holy Spirit and to determine that for me. Now, if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you don't believe in the Bible, that's fine. Because my point here is that if Rush Limbaugh handed it off to you and told you this is what you need to believe, and this is the president you got to vote for, and if you do vote for that president, that is binary. Like, you know, in American voting, like, you really do only have two choices. Like, I get it, there's been third-party candidates that have sometimes come close, but I'm not registered as a Republican or a Democrat. But when I vote, I have to base it on a lot of nuance and what's important to me and what the person is doing.

And Curt, when you did believe more based on what the Bible said, based on what you had been taught, which I had the same thing, what would you have heard of this conversation right now? Old Curt would have heard this conversation, and what would he have thought?

The first thought is this guy is full of heresy because it's binary. It was so much easier when it's served up to you on a platter of what you need to believe. Someone who is thinking outside of that is taking too much of their own liberty and maybe even engrandizing themselves, which I understand why you would think that.

I still feel that a little bit. I'm like, wait, am— do I have the ability to take liberty on this thing that I may or may not believe in? But I— you know what I mean? Like And maybe that just speaks to how complicated and confusing this is.

Well, you know what else speaks to how complicated and confusing it is, is that we all know the Bible is so true and so good in the Christian world, and we pretend like there's no contradictions because it's infallible. But how many Christian faiths are based on the Bible with completely differing views, and all of them claim to be the best understander or interpreter of this book of scripture. And yet most people, what I described about the Bible being books written by different people and sort of that context of like, they all had feelings and wrote them off of memory. Like, listen, Melody, if I had to write to you about what happened last year, if I just went one year back and I had to write to you about the exact experience, I can just go ahead and just start off the first sentence, don't trust a word I say following this. So your question is a super important one because as I put myself in the shoes of the listener here, if you're a believer, you may well root me out, but I can only promise you this. I'm happier now, and I am trying as hard as I can to do what my creator wants me to do. And this doesn't come lightly, but I think it transcends just eternity. It transcends just your religious affiliation.

It goes all the way into what foods you like. Or won't even try, what political beliefs you hold or won't even consider otherwise, what racism you may engender. Like, we all don't get to control the foundation that we're built on because it's fed to us and we accept it and we trust it. And I think that it saves us from making a lot of other decisions. It's super helpful. It's like a very good survival technique. So I guess, Melody, just to get back to your question, what do you think? Like, what does it make you feel like as I've been talking about this stuff?

I spend a lot of time, a lot of time whenever we're talking about anything, thinking about the people who don't believe the way that we might, since most of our, we seem to be aligned a lot of the time with the way that we think, not on purpose. I didn't know that when we started this podcast, but I'm always worried that somebody is going to think that I am. A— not an intellectual, but like, I'm choosing to believe what I want to believe and not believe things. So there's that. Also, somebody's gonna be like, oh, she thinks she knows everything, like she's better than I am, she thinks. Like, what is that person called?

Well, yeah, it's like a know-it-all, basically.

Or— but there's like a word for it where we look down on other people. Oh, look at them and their petty beliefs. People know And I really spend a lot of time feeling angst about these things because I care about a lot of different kinds of people who have a lot of different kinds of beliefs. And there's a lot of angst inside of me knowing that some people are gonna dismiss me or maybe unfriend me or not be open to having a discussion about something and really hearing what might be hear my perspective the way that I would want to hear theirs. And sometimes I can't hear their perspective because I am just so past believing in whatever they did. But I, being raised the way I was, I believed in all of these things on the conservative side. I can't say I've believed in everything on the liberal side, but I believe way more towards people are humans and we should, you know, I've always had a bleeding heart. Whether I was conservative or not.

I've had a bleeding heart. I care about people. And so I hate the idea of being dismissed. I've asked ChatGPT to talk about me sometimes. Tell me what you know about me. You know, those ones where you're like, it always says the same stuff. I'm thinking of all of the different things all at once. Like, I want all the different viewpoints, and I'm not like one thing, and I resist being one thing, whether it's in decision-making.

I just, I wish I could think like that because I think life would be so much easier. But I spend a lot of time feeling angst about why do I care so much about other people and holding their values. And really what it's been is because I want to be that one friend who a conservative person, for instance, will think, oh, my liberal friend, but they'll hold me with love.

That actually does lead me to part of what I want to talk about today. I think this is really good at the outset, and before we get too much deeper, is individually, when I talk to people who are militantly liberal or militantly Republican or conservative, and I know it's a social thing that we do, but they, they're quick to agree. So like, yeah, I do believe that we should love and care about everybody, and it doesn't matter what side of the— yes, I agree. I believe we should always take care of the needy. Yes, we should. And maybe we should really, you know, look at our welfare program. Welfare, you know?

Yeah.

When you pull someone aside individually and you have the conversations, I think it's good. Listen, I know all the right things to say to trash a liberal. I also know the right things to say. So if I was to say, wow, liberals care so much, they love so much, and yet all they want to do is get people relying on the system and then hold them captive. And destroy the whole community and steal.

The money from people who work hard.

Yes, thank you. That's another very important point. So baked into that is some sort of ideology that the other person is intentionally bad, like they know they're bad and they're at it. Now, if we were to say all these churchgoing Republicans that go to church and sit in the pews, but would never provide for the needy, and they, they want to deport the babies out of this country and people who are just coming here to make a life for their family. Don't they know their family was an immigrant family? They say they believe in a God, but they're the most heathen, you know. So what does that do? That assumes, again, the person on the other side of the aisle is intentionally evil, that they're plotting and scheming. That is, for me, the big division is when I talk to people individually, that's not at all the case. When I talk to people about the collective, that mentality creeps in.

And foundationally, I believe that that's where things start to crumble— the us versus them.

And it's not even necessarily their belief systems. Like you said, individually we can have great conversations.

It's the narrative.

It's the narrative. And it's also the media we listen to helps us to decide, and the power. Like, honestly, Curt, The powers that be in this world, in this country, they just want us to fight so that they can keep getting more powerful. It's not helping any of us. I'm not richer as a business owner because of the government. I've never been richer. I'm not better off because all of these immigrants are gone or whatever. Like, that doesn't even matter in my life on a day-to-day level.

The things that the country is fighting about does not even affect us on a day-to-day level.

And then the whataboutism, it makes it worse because, well, we're disagreeing and I can see that you're making some good points here, so let me do the whataboutism where I take the conversation onto a complete— now we got to talk about abortion, about how you want to kill babies all the time, which is so crazy because babies are so innocent. And have you ever held one? They're baby and they're sweet and they're wonderful, and you believe the baby should be killed? Well, wait, wait, wait, so you believe that people who are in these other circumstances, that they should— you know, yeah.

It'S always one And just for the other side of that issue is the part where, well, Republicans don't— conservatives don't want to take care of these babies that they have to be born, and now they don't want to take care of them, and the church doesn't take care of them. So like, who's supposed to take care of them? You wanted this baby here. And it's all like, also, these arguments are so big. And yes, it affects a lot of people, but it doesn't affect our daily lives that we are living most of the time.

But this idea of being able to shift so quickly on these big topics and move at a million miles an hour as we're trashing the other person or the other community, what happens is, is that we forget that the other person on the other side truly believes that they're doing right. And that's where now we actually have to stop and care. You know, I guess the saying is a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It's sort of the same for this. It's like just digging in the heels of the other person by speaking down to them. But we do this and then we expect that they'll like want to be persuaded by us. Hey, libertard, listen to me. I've got the information you want.

Like, first of all, it assumes that the other person is stupid and evil. And now I want you to listen to me because I'm going to help you be smarter. Like, no, it's not. It doesn't work that way.

No. Don't you feel like the times when we've had the most change— I know for me, I grew up so conservative, but when I started cleaning windows, I met a lot of gay people, for instance, because we live in an area that has a lot of gay couples. And I started experiencing the world through other people's eyes. And once I started experiencing the world and traveling in the world, that was another big one, seeing the way that other people view the world and the United States. We're so insulated. And even though we get news from the world, it is very much a certain way and it is very insulated. And that really shifted how I view the world, how I view people and humans and just having bigger experiences.

Well, I mean, you're hitting a really important nail that I think is important too, that insulation. Not all religions are like the one I grew up in, but the one I— well, that I'm still a member of is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, known as the Mormons. We're told, you know, family is the core. Your family has a special feel to it. If you were to go into other people's homes, you would feel that coldness that all the other families in the world have to experience. Your mom and dad love each other in a way that other families are always fighting all the time. And I'm like, oh, wow, I would never want to hear my parents fight. And the fact that you guys have the Holy Spirit in your home, like you have all this guiding power.

Well, imagine how confusing that was the first time I went into someone's home. Ironically, I did as a Mormon missionary as well. But, you know, I go into a friend's home and their parents are nice to each other and it felt really nice and cozy in their house. That's very confusing. And the reason it's confusing is because you're taught to believe something by people you trust and in a community that is basically your world, that you're told how the world is, but don't go experience it. You need to stay here where it's safe. And then you feel a little bit betrayed because you go out and you go, this isn't what they said at all. And so you're talking about gay people.

So my brother ended up coming out as gay, which of course you can imagine was pretty confusing for our family. And it was confusing to find out that he wasn't an evil person, you know. It was confusing when I was when I had my window cleaning company, I'd go into people's homes who believe very different things, obviously, by what was hanging on their walls, or again, the gay couple you go into, and they're such a loving and kind group, and how can they find love? How can this be good? Because God said, you know, these people have to be turned to salt, you know, whatever. So the fact is, is that we're insulated and we believe what we believe based off of this false dichotomy, that polar, like we're on the right island and everyone else that isn't on that island isn't. And we can't listen to them, or.

Well, we can't trust them.

We can't trust them. And the more I've gotten— like, for example, um, you know, I was at a conference and this, you know, it actually happens all the time, but this one in particular guy was trying to convert me away from my beliefs out of pure love for me. He's like, I don't understand how someone so good as you could believe something so evil.

Oh wow, really? That still happens nowadays?

Wow. He was sweet. He was trying to save me and I knew exactly where his heart was. It was, it never came across as condescending, even if, you know, maybe a few years previous it would have. I didn't take it that way. Not in the least. But he couldn't accept anything I said because it was all tainted by the fact that I was on the wrong side.

Well, that you were evil. Yeah. You just didn't know it.

Yeah. Well, he knew, like, the evil side, they can't have you. You're too good to be on the evil side.

So now you're being I'm just sitting here like, he was so cute, pat on the head.

No, no, it was cute.

It was cute. I know, I know.

He loved me. Like, he really did. It was uncomfortable for him, but he was willing to do it because he truly adorable. Like, you're watching, you're going, this guy cares so hard. And then there's the opposite that I want to talk about today. And that really is, is that this stuff that's going on right now with Ice, we all already talked about murder. Like, murder's bad and emotions are high. People breaking the law, lawlessness is also bad.

Like if someone is, you know, in a country that they were supposed to go through a certain process to get into, you know, but the way we're going about it right now is so divisive that we'll never get to any ethical thing because we're not clinging to ethics. We're clinging to positions and we're clinging to the, like, the need to be shown as authoritative or right. And I'm watching this toilet spiral. Before my eyes. And if we remain quiet, Melody, in an effort to be neutral— complicit. Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. I'm afraid that we're complicit.

Well, and also, even if you took it at face value of what this was about to begin with, which I never did but some people do, it was to get rid of all of these— the worst of the worst, the worst criminals that had come into our country. They were destroying, they were murdering, you know, raping, pillaging. We were getting rid of those people.

Even eating cats and dogs, I think, was one of the— Yeah.

And the thing about it is we have people in this country who are here on legit visas. They are here on asylum, or they've applied for asylum because they're in dangerous situations. These are real things that happen. And the government doesn't just say, oh, you want asylum? Sure, let's— you can come in. They actually take it seriously. I used to be married before my current husband. I was married to somebody who wasn't from this country. I had to go through the immigration process with him.

I saw how hard it is to be able to get a visa, to be able to stay here, to get your green card and keep it and keep it. I have family still who is in this country who are carrying passports right now, even though they're American citizens. And people might laugh that off. No, this is real. If you have brown skin right now, people are worried. They have to worry about one of my mother-in-law. She has a 10-year visa. She's not a criminal.

She's done nothing wrong, and she's certainly not going to hurt anybody. She helps us out a lot when she's here. I miss her right now. We have to worry about whether she can come back. And I don't understand why I can see through this from the beginning. But you know what it was, Curt? I'll just say, I mean, I've said it before, it was when he got elected the first time, when Trump got elected the first time, I was seeing my values that I had been growing up with about what's wrong and what's morally wrong, you know, what kind of value system you need to have. And I was seeing that there was a very big disconnect between our president and the faith I had grown up with. And I couldn't turn away from that.

I could not pretend that didn't exist. And maybe it's because I had distance from evangelical world, but it's still in my heart, you know, like the parts, a lot of it doesn't go away.

Well, there's a couple of things in your evangelical heart that I think are hardwired. One of them is love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Those are the two main things. Not a lot of love going on and all of it in the name of righteousness. It's really weird. And the second part of it that's weird is learning to turn the other cheek. I know people, when they hear that meek will inherit the earth, I understand that humility and meekness, A, they're not the same, and B, they're not popular when you need to make your voice heard. But I think it's important to point out that as a religious/spiritual person, and you're talking about evangelical, I think it's important that as you continue in this point that you're making, that we understand that a lot of what was wired into us and spoken and reiterated is when you're asked to go one mile, you go a second.

When you're slapped on the cheek, you turn the other cheek. The meek will inherit the earth. Humility is the greatest of all. Faith, hope, love, and charity. These are all things that, you know, if I could just use the term religious right, if I'm going to talk about that, as someone standing on the outside, I'm sure that someone on the inside would disagree with me, but just as an outsider looking in, it feels very much not like that. Likewise, on the left, there is an antagonization of, we need to be more accepting and I will punch you in the face until you do accept. I can understand why the escalation is happening, but I want you to kind of continue on as you're talking and talking about sort of your background of what you're bringing up with. In that mindset.

I also want to say I do have a lot of liberal friends who are just like, if you believe this thing— it's same with conservative, actually. Facebook is a great example of this. They'll say, if you believe this thing, just unfriend me right now. We have such opposing views that there is no need for us to even communicate ever again.

Such a shame.

But I really struggle with that because on the one hand, I would love to do that. I'd love to be like, hey, If you don't believe everything I believe in, because I know that I'm right, then just cut me off. I don't need you anymore. I want to be around people who get it. That is what I would love to do.

But all that does is create an.

Echo chamber for you on both sides. Yes, yes.

And no ability to impact the other for good, which I want to talk about as we get to the end. I do want to talk about persuasive versus being right and the obsession with being right and complete disregard for persuasiveness. So That's a really key point here.

Just talking about the state of our country in general, I feel very worried about where we're at because democracy is something I've just taken for granted. I've lived in places that didn't have democracy, and I understand what that looks like. I always thought America, like, our values were clear, even though we would fight. It was like we were all a family. Like we all have different personalities and we were going to fight it out, but you can't talk bad about my family, right? And I don't feel that anymore. I feel like we are on the edge of war with each other.

And actually, huge concern of mine is that I believe that there are countries just salivating watching us right now.

I would be if I was another country.

Just, wow, they're doing the job for us. We're doing it on the inside. Yeah.

Well, and I also wonder a lot of the times, because we had so much news about how like Russian bots were infiltrating in the past elections and like making comments. I think about that all the time. There's a lot of incendiary commentary on the social media. We don't know these people all the time. We don't even know if they're real. There's millions and millions of bots that are programmed to make us upset. Now, we also have friends that we know who are programmed to make us upset at times too. But I guess what I'm saying is when you meet somebody face to face and you have a great conversation with them, And you're like, wow, even though we believe different, sometimes I don't even know what they believe until later, but like, we still share the same values.

And then we go online and we see such differing opposing viewpoints that maybe I would have written them off before, but I'm like, wait a minute, we had the same basic values when I was with them. What's happening? And so I worry, I worry about like not being somebody who can hold space for other people. But also, I think I'm reaching that tipping point where I'm not willing to put up with what I know is blatantly wrong. Like, there's something happening in our country that is so— and it's exhausting for all of us. And it feels like it's wild how many things every day are happening. It's constant chaos. And it's meant to be that. It's meant to keep us looking at all the other things.

And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I truly feel like we kind of have an army of people right now, ICE agents, who are not our friends.

They don't seem to operate under any kind of, like, check or balance.

There's no checks or balances. I had read a piece recently which— take it for what you want— but it said that It was this person who had applied at an ICE recruitment thing, and within 5 minutes they were given a job, essentially, without doing background check yet.

That doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure that story checks out?

No, I have no idea, but look it up online because that was one of a million stories I saw that day.

I mean, I would be skeptical of that, but I have met enough people in I don't know ICE agents personally, but I know enough police officers that I've thought, this guy became a police officer because he really wants to have, like, this authority complex. Certainly met plenty of those. And I can only imagine how appealing something like not having checks and balances and a gun could be for someone like that.

I did go on the ICE website though. And if you go on the ICE website and look at their FAQs and how they talk about the job, and what you're required to have. Like, you're not required to have a lot of education, or there's a lot of things on there that were kind of red flaggy to me. So people have to do their own research. Don't take my word for it. But whatever I read, I'm always reading things with a thought of like, is this real, right? But I think it was probably from a source that's reliable to me. And I'm not saying they didn't do background checks later. I'm saying They were hiring without— and we've heard about people who have had instances of spousal abuse, or they've been charged with things, and they still became agents.

That's actually true because it's been very much reported on all of the sites, pretty much.

We also know people who get background checks, you know, they can change enough, and people with the right training can still do the wrong thing and all that.

Yeah, that's true.

But that doesn't mean we don't try, right? Like, I mean, you're putting someone in a pretty powerful position to, you know, in this case, take the life of not one person, but two people.

Not just two people.

And not just two people. Yeah.

A lot more. Just we didn't see it with our own eyes.

And the thing is, is that what I have seen, which just absolutely like you can't unsee it. It's just disgusting. I want to get kind of personal here for a second. Then I'm going to do my best to not be emotional about this, but I have a sibling that I love very much. I love her. I love her husband and her family very much. But the fact that someone else in my family did vote for Trump and she's sure of it, doesn't have to ask, but just knowing what kind of radio they listen to, where they get their news sources and all that, she was unable to come to family dinners anymore. You know, you talked about the ex, you know, the Facebook's like, if you don't agree, just unfriend me now.

It became something where she— it was mentally and emotionally too hard for her to come to even family dinner where we don't talk about politics. We don't push on each other. You know, it's not to say this never happened, but certainly as the escalation has happened, it's been even more like cognizant of like, we're just not gonna— that's, you know, we can talk about anything else, you know, kind of thing. And even now, Obviously, I think even now it's probably gonna be even harder, but she made a lot of progress and was able to come to Christmas and spend time with us, and it was so good to have her back in the room and everything. But the point is, is that I'm watching relationships become more hollow in my own family. Even when she's there, I have to be so careful. And I'm worried about our country. When I talk about rotting from the inside out, I'm afraid of that hollowness.

I'm afraid of that constant divisiveness. And the fact that there's a script A and a script B, and we don't need to know what's on script B if we agree with script A, and vice versa. I can't listen to you. We can't interact with each other.

Yeah, I have that in my family too, of just keeping it very light. Light. I don't live my life like that. I don't like to have surface-level conversations with people. That's like feels like a waste of my energy because it doesn't allow me to be myself.

It almost mocks the relationship in total. Like, when you're there pretending that this is just a light relationship, it mocks it.

It's painful. And I don't think anybody has not been affected. And I still think back to, by the way, to the first election where there was so much— how easily other countries were influencing us. Without us even knowing it, right? When they look back at the election and how— what was happening on social media, what news stories were being put out, I don't think that just went away. And so it becomes more important for us to hold our values tightly, like the ones that are deep down essential part of us and our humanity. I tend to think Everybody has a respect for the life of others. I don't know that that's true.

It's not true universally in every instance, but I do think that it's more true than not. It's a terrible way to say it, but I think it's majority true. The bigger your society gets, the more outliers you have, and the more outliers you have, the more outside maybe negative influences you might have. And And that's kind of where I think we draw the line today is we talk about negative influence versus diverse influence. And whenever one person's on a side where they feel like they're being silenced, that's when they want to speak about divert— don't you want my body, my choice? Can't I have my choice here? Well, that's funny because when we were talking about the other topic, you didn't believe in my body, my choice. So now it's a good argument. You yourself are pointing out the contradiction that diversity in thought versus dangerous thought. And I think the definition for me on that is that dangerous thought is I am going to go in my own self-interest at the peril of others and/or my life is more valuable than others and I will legislate it that way.

Or my thoughts are so good that I need to stop the thought of others. So for example, little video someone sent me about the conservative side was trying to get certain books taken out of a library. And this guy gets up, he's like, yeah, we need to have freedom of speech in this country. Yeah, we need freedom of thought. The way we do that is take books away. We gotta get these books out of there, make sure people don't have those thoughts. But of course we're talking about children.

So yeah, it's nuance.

Everyone wants to pretend like you can say a one-line zinger and like it's all figured out. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Okay, well, I'm so thankful that Adam was attracted to women. Like how grateful we all are. You know, if you believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden actually happened, gratefully, Adam was attracted to women. But not every Adam that's ever been born has had the luxury of always being attracted to the opposite sex. So it's nuanced. And When we say that we will allow other people to believe and worship with freedom of thought and freedom of religion and all that, if they want to get married, and you need to legislate against that for your own purposes, what are those purposes? What is it that your need to keep that relationship from being able to make that ceremony or that vow and have those tax benefits and have those mortgage benefit, you know, like being able to own property together.

How does it affect other people?

And yet in today's world, if you believe that taxes should be done as Republicans, then you also know where you stand on abortion, on gay marriage, and on, you know, death penalty and everything else. Because I'm sure of one thing, so now I'm sure of everything. And that's where I think the danger is. And my concern is, this is what I really want to get to, is the more right that people feel, the less persuasive they become.

So how do you know that what we believe is right for us? Like, how do you know that we are not going to in 5 years be like, wow, I can't believe I believed in human rights. That was crazy.

Well, I think that's first a good way to measure any decision is like, right now I'm angry and I want to do that. And it's probably a good thing to step back and go like 5 years from now, like, I know you're angry now, but like, I'm sure you won't be angry in 5 years. Well, actually, maybe I, maybe you still will, but certainly the family of Alex Petty, I'm sure they'll probably still be angry in 5 years. But the thing is, is that, yeah, that's probably a good place to start. I think your question is super valid in that I'm not so sure that I am right, that I, I'm trying to do what I know is right, but I am holding so much space to be still listening. And I think that when I grew up, that was a big thing I remember hearing a lot as a kid, like knocking politicians for being flip-floppers. And I remember thinking, oh yeah, that person made a commitment and didn't keep it. Because again, religiously, I was brought up that like, you make a covenant with God and you keep that covenant with God.

But does God want us to make a commitment? And then as he feeds us new information through this life, does he want us to always ignore and turn our head to what he's trying to teach us? In an effort to always remain where we were. And I just don't think it doesn't make any sense to send us somewhere to learn and grow and then not learn and grow.

Just from a more non-religious viewpoint too, because I realize I'm totally comfortable with you talking about the God, the spiritual aspect of all of this stuff. So I'll go to the other side of like, if people aren't, it's the same either way. Like, I don't want a politician who never questions their beliefs. I know that because our world changes, our understanding of the world changes. We have more information now than we've ever had. We have more access to the world than we've ever had. And that's just a part of growing. Like, your growth mindset, people talk about it in business.

You have to be open. If you have a fixed mindset, you don't change your mind. You believe that you can't change it. And why would I want people in positions of power who have a fixed mindset about something?

There is a danger in someone who is every every fad or every wind that blows that they don't hold their ground. But that's where I think that it becomes important. If you flip-flop on a topic or a subject or whatever the issue might be, as long as you're doing it rooted on that long-term belief of like, no, this is something that really matters into the future.

Well, I think even backwards, because a lot of us, like, I think about politicians during presidential elections or something, it'd be like, well, 20 years ago, they said this, and it's totally the opposite of what they believe now. And then that's supposed to ruin them. And I'm like, great, what I believed 20 years ago, I don't believe now either. If you're flip-flopping all the time based on the popularity of an issue, that's very different. I don't think that's what we're talking about. We're talking about like long-held beliefs on big issues, you know. I want people to be thoughtful about that as they grow and their view of the world changes. And honestly, a politician, even though we don't like them, they're— the whole job of a politician is to represent all of us.

And that's really hard to do when you are really ingrained in your belief, you know, it can only be this way. And I'm going to take all these other people. Somebody once said, you know, what's right for 51% of the country is wrong for 49% of the country. And it was like, that sucks. I don't like that because it's not true. It's just like a vote. But our voting system, it's not like it's 80/20 or something. It's usually 49/48 and then the middle ground, right? There's a lot of nuance in our beliefs.

Even when I have like private conversations with friends who are super liberal or super conservative, like you talked about before, they can make jokes that are not politically correct or are politically incorrect, whatever side they're on. And I'm like, oh wow, so everybody doesn't believe that way? Like, it's not black and white ever, but our values are— should be. Well, how do we know? I really truly believe morally we should not be hurting other people. We should not be imposing ourselves on other people. And taking away their freedom to live how they want to live unless they're hurting people.

Okay, so that's where I think that we're at this crossroads is really important. Where does your belief of what's right move to either righteous indignation and, uh, self-righteousness and holier-than-thou and talking down to other people, or taking the turn of persuasion. We're told the scriptures, long-suffering, gentleness, and goodness, right? You know, there's a time where Jesus is flipping tables in the temple, and there's a time where he's turning the other cheek. And I think that's where some people are like, but remember the one time? Remember the one time that he went and flipped tables among his own people who he thought had been listening and were following? And, you know, or all the other times where he said, like, hey, you're the Samaritans. We're going to be a good Samaritan. A Jew falls on the side. We need a good Samaritan who normally would be the enemy to take care of them. Like, can we take this persuasive turn? And I guess that's my question for you, Melody, is I understand why people are standing up and taking a stand for things.

Like, I get it. There's passion involved. And I, I think that if you take the passion out, you know, not standing your ground for the things that you know are right and true. And I think that's the whole point of our podcast today. How do we deal with that tension?

I just know that the tension inside of us gets too hard to bear because it really— we are individuals, right? We've been given this life to live, and some people believe in God, some don't. You know, we are all different people, but in my view, human life is sacred. And when our government starts to look like they are trampling, and they've always trampled in some ways. Like, you know, somebody can go to jail because of our system and stay in jail for 30 years, and we find out later they were never guilty, right? Those things happen. But right now it is so blatant that I can't pretend I don't see what I see and how far against my value system it goes, and the value system of what I was taught to believe in. Here's the difference. I was taught to believe in a very— all the things you're talking about, you know, love your neighbor, meek, shall inherit the earth, all of these things. Those are the ones I hold on to, of course, because they're— that's why I say if I don't believe in God, I'm definitely going to hell for that belief.

But all of those things, I still hold that as a value system for me, whether I believe in the God part of it or not. Because I feel like those are universal laws of humanity for the most part. If we look at the rest of the world and we look at like, what are some of the things, not of the crazy sects of different, like, but the general universal rules of human and in religion. And we kind of have basic ideas of what is right and what is wrong. It's wrong to put a baby into jail.

Yeah. I agree.

I think back to the Japanese internment camps, and we were so wrong for doing that. And at the time, people just went along with it, and it was a part of what was happening. I think of Germany, and I know that everybody's like, ah, Germany, well, it's so different. It's not so different. My nana, before she married the Black American that she married, she was married to a Nazi. And a lot of people were Nazis because that's what the party was. You had to be, right?

Just so you know, last night it was just reported that 30,000 or more people have been killed in Iran. 30,000 within 48 hours. That's actually a pace that is greater than Nazi Germany ever was. That's more. So I just want to point out that I know hyperbole is important to stay away from, and this is not related to ICE.

No, no, no. I think the difference is that Iran, they're trying to get back their country. Germany was not trying to get back their country.

The important thing, I think this is why my heart is so heavy right now, is that I feel that the divide between people is so great that very explosive things are about to happen. And where I think that the right side, the conservative side, has held on to the Second Amendment belief, now the left side after seeing what ICE is doing with this ultimate power, they are also clinging to the Second Amendment belief?

I've thought about it.

And I'm telling you right now, I believe the Second Amendment exists for all of us. You know, like I'm not poo-pooing anybody, but the side that originally was like, I would never even touch a gun because, you know, that's a Republican thing. I think, I think now we have two really angry sides who are wanting to arm to the teeth. You know, it pains me to say that the future I'm looking at is that people are now becoming column A and column B, not individuals.

We're becoming desensitized.

We've taken the face off of everybody and replaced it with a label.

I am not satisfied with our conversation fully because I feel like there's two different conversations happening. One is that we're trying to figure out, like, how do we talk about this without losing our relationships, because I feel it is so important right now more than ever that there are people like you and me that people can feel safe coming to and having relationships with where we're not going to be like, well, I hate you now because you're dumb and you believe the wrong thing. And at the same time, I'm moving closer to being at a point where I can't hold that space anymore. And I never thought it'd get there.

I'm so scared. I talked about my sister who has intentionally cut herself off from the family for her own mental health was the reason cited. You know, I think mental health, you know, it's never been more real than now. Honestly, that same member of the family that she is concerned with, you know, Melanie, I'm not really sure how to broach the subject with that member of my family that I love deeply because I know that they view the world much more than I do is that it's not a gradient, but black and white. And I am scared to death. Honestly, I'm telling you that, like, from the heart, I'm so worried that if I ask this family member, if I ask that question, if vice was justified to murder somebody, I am so worried that they're going to try to justify it to me. And if they do, what's that going to do to my relationship with them? And how am I supposed to navigate that? And you say, but isn't your relationship more than this one conversation or this one little belief? Well, first off, it's not a little belief. And secondly, it tells me that this person is not willing or able to step outside of the paradigm that's being fed to them through media, or, you know, if you want to go as far as calling it propaganda, like, I don't know what else to call it, Melanie.

If this person who is so good will justify it or in any way defend it. I don't know what to do with it.

I feel that deeply because it's not only my family. It's like on Facebook, for instance, a lot of home service business owners have used that as the main tool of like keeping up with business, right? And so I've always treaded a line there. Of unless it's really bad, I don't talk about this stuff and I try to stay away from it because I want to hold space for people and I'm so afraid of being dismissed and losing relationships that matter to me. I'll give you an example. I think I've said this maybe before, but maybe I didn't. When Trump was elected, I put a Patriots joke on the internet, which was going around at the time that said, like him or hate him, you have to respect that he's a great leader. He's done all these things. And it sounds like you're talking about Trump.

And then it says, and that's why we love Bill Belichick from the Patriots, you know. And I thought it was hilarious because I got mad. And then when I read the end, I was like, that's really funny. It had me going there for a minute. And it's like, I put that online and within 5 minutes, somebody that is very liberal, had unfriended me and called me out on it. And they've never talked to me again because they didn't read the whole thing. They didn't even bother to read the whole thing.

You know, people say they didn't bother to read the whole thing. Listen, this whole world is inundated with things to read. We could read a Harry Potter novel every hour.

And I knew her since I was 9.

I know. And it's tough because everybody is moving so quickly. We know no one's reading everything. You can't. And then this, I mean, obviously I'm not justifying what she did, but this is the world we're in. It's an impossibility to take in all the information. And that's where we're at. And I don't want to make this all about this one conversation I'm trying to have with my family, but I do need to just like say at this point, like, I am now being faced with feelings of like, I got off social media for the very reasons that you're citing today.

Like everything you've said about social media. I'm like, yeah, that's why I'm not there. Like, you won't find me on LinkedIn, you won't find me on Facebook, Twitter.

Can't believe you run a business and you don't have to do it. I'm so jealous.

My business would be a lot bigger if I did. I mean, I just— I won't live my life that way. And now I am in a very real hand-to-hand version of this. And you know, when my brother came out as gay, I remember thinking, nothing is more impossible than this. How are we ever going to reconciled. You know what? It's just a thing that happened now. My brother and his partner, I love them to death. I think they're phenomenal people, and their sexuality has had surprisingly little effect on me.

You know, like, I just— yeah, crazy to think. But I hope that I look back on this and have those, those same feelings. But it feels pretty hot right now.

We're at a place right now that you and I have never, ever been in our lifetime. We've literally witnessed murder. We saw it with our own eyes. You can't unsee that.

I really wish I could unsee that.

We can't.

That's affected me so much.

Me too. And the fact that we saw it, I think we needed to see it because otherwise we can make excuses when we don't see it. We can say, well, we don't know the whole story. You know, we didn't see it with our own eyes, so it didn't happen. Even people who saw it with their own eyes are making excuses. She shouldn't have been driving towards the officer. She shouldn't have been doing this. She should have stopped the car.

He shouldn't have carried a gun. He shouldn't have, like, approached that. There's always going to be an excuse. Ultimately, that's my values are tight on this. Don't put children in prison. Don't take people who have civil— like, you wouldn't put me in prison if I did a civil infraction. That's not how it works. That's what immigration is.

And we come from a country of all immigrants. Like, I'm not saying everybody be here who's illegal. I'm saying due process.

That's what makes us great. It's what makes us so great.

It is what made us great.

Yeah.

I don't think we're there.

Well, I'm not super in love with the conversation, but I think this is the pain of us saying we have a platform that holds space for people, but I think that you can't be so soft Like, it's finding the balance. You need to be soft enough to allow other people to exist with you, and you need to be something of worth that stands up. And I think it's possible to swing the pendulum too far in either direction. For our viewers out there, maybe you have a justification for why ICE is allowed to execute people on the street. I'll just say to you, don't unfriend me.

Because you don't have social media.

Yeah, don't unfriend our podcast.

Yeah.

We need to talk.

Yeah, I agree.

And the fact is, is like, just like my family member, like, I'm not gonna stop going to family dinner, but I also am not going to be able to persuade you to think of things differently if I cut you out of my life. And frankly, I don't believe you're going to persuade me either. So instead of both of us digging our heels in, let's just talk. Let's just talk, because honestly, If we don't talk and we go to silence, the next time we interact with each other, it's going to be probably with violence because we can't stand to be in the same room as each other.

I don't even think it's the talking. We have to hold on to the relationships even if there's not the talking, because when you cut somebody off, you're cutting off the good parts of them too. You know, there are some people who are just not— I mean, I don't believe that there are only good and bad. I like, I just think there are some people you do have to cut out of your life, but I don't think the political view is the reason I'm going to do that necessarily.

But remember, right now we've been doing a lot of talk about politics. Politics and humanity are different.

So different.

They're woven together in very tight ways. But just as you're talking here, I want to make sure we delineate that like, this isn't all about politics either.

No, this is not about politics actually at all for me. It's about humans. And love and just— well, love sounds really like, what is it, hippie dippy? Yeah, hippie. But honestly, it's what matters is like love thy neighbor. Biblical.

If you can't find yourself to love your neighbor, I get it. But can we respect your humanity? I get it. Like, I've met people who I'm like, my gosh, God wants me to love this person and they are so hard to love. But the fact is, is like, liking and loving can be different. Let's remember that. And let's remember that before we start hating people, can we like at least like remember that they're human before we're like, go to the next topic? And can we also remember that everyone thinks that they are truly doing what's right, even if they are uninformed? They're right to the amount of information that they have or to the ideologies that they have always been able to trust. Or to what their parents told them, or to what their teacher at school in psychology taught them, whatever it is, that lens that the person's going through, I refuse to believe that there's any true percentage of the population that is truly acting in an interest that they believe is overall bad. Now, there's people who know they're doing bad things because maybe they can't stop themselves, or they think they're acting in the interest of the greater good, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I understand that.

Are you saying that you don't think there's bad people?

I don't think there's an appreciable percentage of those people.

Wait, I might not agree with you. Isn't that great? I love that. Finally. Look, don't cut me out, Curt.

Yeah, we can still be friends. I think that that could be a conversation too, but that is something we've said is like, even the bad guy thinks he's a good guy. And I really do. In my heart believe that that's the case. And if you can't get there, at least remember that person is a living, breathing soul. And, you know, they may be in the minority of believing a certain thing, but it's just like telling them they're stupid or punching them while they're down or, you know, killing them. All of those things don't change the fact that they have as much right to live as you do.

I have a reaction to the way that you think about this. And I go straight to, well, what about Hitler? You know, I do that thing in my brain. I wasn't going to say it, but then I was like, I have to because we were talking about this earlier, like that extreme. I get what you're saying. I do. I somewhat disagree with you. I don't fully disagree, but I do somewhat. I'm excited to disagree with you.

And we should definitely talk about it in another conversation because then we can have lots of debate and disagreement, which we love. But I think you and I are pretty much aligned on the fact that I would say I do believe most people are good and they want to be good. I do believe that, you know, some people just need a bigger sense of control when it comes to the world. So they're going to have a black and white view of the world. We all believe different things, and yet somehow we have been put together on this planet to live together. Somehow peacefully, maybe, or unpeacefully.

Like, we're gonna live together, that's for sure.

We're just gonna live together. But I just don't— as we come to the end of the conversation, I don't feel good like we usually do. I don't feel like this therapy session worked as well because it wasn't.

We've spent a lot of time putting stuff out on the table. What can we extract from this that will make us a little bit better or send a message that will help people to maybe have an action item.

Coming into this conversation, I was feeling like I don't really have a lot more space left for people who don't get on board with the idea that humans are valuable no matter where they come from. Like, there's a lot of things happening that I'm having severe reactions to, and usually I can still have space. And I think I've come back to the idea that I still need to be one of those people in the middle who allows for other beliefs, builds relationships with people. Because ultimately, I think that we are the kind of people, and others like us, are the ones who are going to be able to keep us from destroying each other. And that makes it sound like we are smarter than everybody, and that's not what I'm trying to say. I overthink all of these things. I'm just trying to say, like, I don't see another way. Either we hold tight to the belief system and then we destroy the other side, or we leave space for people and like learn to coexist.

And which one of you would be right? Which version of you is the right one? Well, the fact is, is probably neither. Because there's a third option. You can be born in a totally other country with a totally different language, you know, and we can't do that. That's unrealistic. What we can do is we can connect with people who were born in a different household, who did grow up in a different faith, who do believe something different ideologically. And if you seriously are curious and can listen to what they say and take the good parts in and leave the parts that you're pretty sure don't follow, and research the ones that sound suspect, right? Like, even earlier in our conversation, Melody, you talked about how easy it could be to be an ICE agent. What was my first reaction? That doesn't sound right to me. Now, if I research it and find out that it is right, well, doggone it, right? Like, I'm going to town on it.

But if I research and I find out it's not right, okay, cool.

Send me the article.

It's another data point that— but all I'm doing is I'm just collecting this curiosity and I'm gonna die with hopefully more things right than what I started with, but I guarantee I won't have it all right. That's not going to keep me from trying to like keep connecting and learning. And I hope that for everybody. I find a lot of peace in that, and I hope you guys do too.

I hope that I can find peace in this at some point. I don't feel very peaceful right now, but it's okay to end on that because I don't think there's a lot of things that I'm seeing that feel hopeful. Now that I say that though, there are a lot of things that are hopeful. It's on the individual level. I'm never gonna see that on a national level. That's not what people are being fed, including me. There are a lot of good people in this world doing great things. I wanna be one of those people.

Well, you are one of those people. And then tomorrow you're gonna make more decisions and you're gonna bring in new information. And I would assume, knowing what I know about you, you're going to do more of the stuff that you think takes you in the direction intentionally you want to go. Where it gets dangerous is when you wake up tomorrow and whatever newspaper article you read leads you to whatever person you're going to become, or you wake up tomorrow and you empower someone else to tell you how to feel. Like, it's just dangerous. And I know that the saying— I can't Someone said, every man is my superior in some way, and it's my job to find out how that is. And whoever said it, I think it's a wise quote. But there's some people maybe out there that in a lot of ways they're not as smart as you and that they got a lot of things wrong.

But what if they have one thing, you know, like, is that person allowed to convey something to you? And I think that's where we start getting to that self-righteous mode where it's like, if you're in column B, there's not a single redeeming factor about you. I can tell you if that's really your mindset right now, that's probably the first place to work because I think that if you really took a minute and you know that's uncategorically false. And so let me, maybe start there even.

Well, we can end it on this note because this is a complicated conversation. I'm sure it won't be the last time that we talk about it, but I didn't feel good about not talking about it, even knowing that we would not come out to an outcome where we had a solid idea and notion about, you know, things. So yeah, this might be the first time I'm walking away from a conversation where I'm like unsettled.

Well, maybe that's the good news because that means that you can keep pondering on it and thinking on it. And actually, this is where we stayed true to our podcast. Our podcast was designed to create space for people to think and like really come to their own conclusions. And I feel like today we've done a good job of taking a stand for hopefully humanity and its importance and where political overstepping freedom is for both sides of the aisle and all that. But the cool thing about being unsettled means that we haven't told anybody how to take this information and what you need to do now in order to be a good citizen of the United States of America. We've put it out there as, of food for thought, and that is true to what we said. So good. Now run with it and be true to yourself.

Well, thank you for having the conversation, and thank you for disagreeing with me that one time. I appreciate it. We're so weird.

Yeah, I know, I know it. Thank you, Melody. It's been a pleasure as always. Thanks everybody for joining us at the Sole Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews, and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many others. If you want to engage with us at our website and maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear on the podcast, feel free to go to soleproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.