Interview with Josh Latimer Part 1

It doesn't matter how hard it is. It only matters if it's worth it. If it's not worth it, don't do it. If it is worth it, stop crying about how hard it is, because who cares? It's worth it. So you're gonna do it anyway. So just, you know, you just. Just do the thing and it's really hard, but you already decide it's worth it, so do it.

Welcome to the Sole Proprietor podcast. I'm Curt Kempton.

And I'm Melody Edwards.

Each week we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.

Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are are welcome here. Hi, Melody. Hey, Curt. How you doing today?

I'm doing pretty good. And that's the sanitized version. We'll talk about the sanitized version in a minute. But I am actually doing pretty good. You gave me a few goals last time we met, and I have really been thinking a lot about it. I hesitate to say I'm proud of it because I feel like I've sort of reached back down to, like, to baseline, or up to baseline, I should say. But I'm doing pretty good and I'm really feeling a lot better about things. How about you?

Oh, I'm normal. That's my answer. Because I never know what. But, yeah, I'm just normal. I'm the same. And I listened to our last episode the other day, and in the episode I had said I probably won't remember what I promised to do, and I didn't remember until I listened. So I just remembered I was supposed to make a chief of staff Melbot that would take over my thinking, which I'm still working on and have been for three years.

Heaven forbid you have to think anymore now in the 89, I don't want to think.

But, Curt, why are we excited today?

I know I'm at the verse of the themes, like, can we stop talking about our stuff right now?

Yeah.

All right, so today we have on one of my very dearest friends, business partners, I can proudly say, and overall, amazingly brilliant human being, Josh Latimer. It's funny, when he types it, it's always Joshua, but I just shortened it straight to Josh. I shortened it to Josh. Josh. Welcome to the podcast today, man.

My wife calls me Joshua when she's mad at me. Like it's full name. Then I'm in trouble for something. So I'm excited to hang out and talk about deep things that actually matter and not just normal. Business stuff. This is very interesting concept.

You're gonna love it, I promise.

So, just to kind of finish the introduction, Josh had a window cleaning business, pressure washing business. The day I did two, you'll never guess what kind of business Melody had. And we all sort of met in that sphere. I had a software venture going. He got one up and running. We worked together a bit on that. We have spoken at conferences together. Mel.

You know, we've all palled around together in sort of a past life. All of us have got other things that we're doing now, but it hasn't really changed the way we view each other. And it certainly hasn't changed where our ethical and spiritual or whatever kinds of different lines we have in our lives have been. And all of it's sort of evolved to this point. So it's kind of fun at this point in all of our relationship to sit down and talk about things. Many of our listeners will remember Josh's name from past podcasts because we often bring him up and say, like, what would Josh say about us right now? Well, today we're going to actually get to, like, literally find that out as we dig into different topics.

And I want to say that I think Josh is the person who is most impacted my life in terms of sales and marketing, which if anybody listens, they might be like, well, that's not a good thing. But, no, I used to be worse. But the thing that. What was the War Plan group.

Yeah, War Plan insiders.

Yes. So I was in that group. You brilliantly sold us on that group by telling us how you were selling us on the group. And I loved it so much that that's what sold me on the group, because I want to know how everything works. And you are really great at explaining concepts in a way that makes sense, and you do it patiently. And I still struggle with those concepts. And you're really good at it.

Oh, thank you.

I have a lot of questions for you about this, as does Curt, I'm sure, so we should just dive right in. But actually, first, Josh, do you want to say something? We might let you.

Hi, Mom. That's it.

Hi, Curt's mom.

Yeah, my mom's the only one that listens, but hi, Mom.

She did a great job with Mr.

Actually, I hope Ashley listens to this because today one of the big questions we're going to be talking about, I think, is how our spouses tie into this. And I just want to say Ashley is one of my favorite human beings ever. I can't believe Josh Got her. But that just speaks to what a marketer he is.

So anyway, I'm a closer.

Yeah.

I married so far up, I need a ladder.

So, Curt, do you want to start off? Do you want me to start off? I have like a list, but.

Yeah. And I'm looking at the list right now. Why don't you go for it first? I have some pets that I want to bring up, but let's let it go.

Okay. I'm going right in because I'm like, next week I'm going to an event, and I've been to a lot of events this year. It's that season of travel, and I meet so many people, Josh. And you know, I'm good with people. I can make connections, I can establish relationships with people. And yet there are so many things that I'm not good about with people and relationships that I think you really are. So some of that I'll get to later. But first, one of the things about you that I think is really exceptional is that you are someone who seems to commit to things fully and quickly.

But it probably isn't quickly, but it seems like you're committed when you go in on something. But I want to know what that feels like internally. Because I feel like when somebody speaks with authority or when they can really speak to something in a way that sells me. For instance, it feels like that's all you ever think of in your head. That's the only way you are. But what's really going on?

Well, it feels like death. It feels like death. And I'm serious. Like, it depends on what you mean when you say committing. So, like, for example, rookie entrepreneurs will over commit to everything. And I still struggle with that too. Right. But I've gotten better at it because Payne is an excellent teacher.

But we're not. I don't think you mean that. I think what you mean is, like, if I have a vision for my next move or something, I'm like, I'll do it. And it feels like death, because that's what it is. I actually believe that you can't carry your old identity into the new thing. You can't. It doesn't work. You can't keep it and bring it into the leveled up vision of whatever we're talking about.

And so it's literally a form of death. You know, that's what life is. It's like a seed to become a tree has to die. It has to cease to be a seed. And so when I look at my little weird journey I started in a Trailer park, married to Ashley, delivered pizza. I was similar personality type. I didn't know anything. You know, have you ever heard the quote that as the island of your knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of your ignorance? Have you ever heard that? It's like, now I have.

When all of us start out, we're so dumb that we don't even know what we don't know to a point where we actually think we know stuff. Socrates said, the only thing I know is that I know nothing. And I remember hearing that quote in my 20s and being like, that's so dumb. That doesn't even make sense. Like, I didn't understand. I had no understanding. I had some base knowledge, but no wisdom. And so window cleaner Josh, there's an identity.

I was scared out of my mind to knock on the first door to try to sell one job for $60, which is where I started. And so by persisting through that, an old version of myself dies like a seed and a little tree grows, right? And then you get stuck. You plateau. And then ended up going through a process there, sold that, started a software company, thinking I was really smart, Almost went bankrupt, which would have been for the second time in my life, because when I lived in the trailer, my wife and I filed bankruptcy because we were trapped in $20,000 in negative equity. And my attorney said, oh, you're so screwed. You only deliver pizza. It'll take you 20 years to pay this off. Just file bankruptcy.

And I had a lot of shame with that. Then I start my software company thinking I know business. Now realized I didn't. I had to change my identity again, which means another death. And there's more to it than that, but it just keeps happening. I guess the best part now is that I kind of know that going in. You got to make sure whatever you're going to go for is worth it. I had T shirts made for all of my kids that says, it doesn't matter how hard it is, it only matters if it's worth it.

It's not worth it. Don't do it if it is worth it. Stop crying about how hard it is, because who cares? It's worth it. So you're gonna do it anyway. So just, you know, you just. Just do the thing and it's really hard, but you already decide it's worth it, so do it. Right. I feel that what we're attempting to do is worth it.

And so the pain and suffering hits a little different with that perspective.

Yeah, I was gonna say after you said, it's a Death. I'm like, oh, okay, you don't have to talk anymore. Because that's what I haven't been doing enough. I haven't been dying enough. I'm still in an old identity that I'm always struggling to get out of.

Well, how do you know when something's worth committing to or if it's just another idea? Because you're a visionary like Curt and I tend to be. And how do you know? Because you've done so many things, but you have like way more ideas than the things you've done.

It was not.

It was not.

They called window wealth, as I recall.

And then I did that, and that worked. And then I'm like, I want an even bigger percentage of people to succeed. So we did an event at our house called the Automate Grow Sell Experience, which Curt was there. He actually almost burned down a field with a drone that. Oh, my gosh, that was a weird thing. And then with Conquer became a thing. And even my software, I think the reason I'm like that is because I have a sense of destiny on my life. I don't think everybody does.

I don't think I'm like, good, because I do. I just do. Ever Since I was 12 years old, I had this, like, radical, weird God encounter thingy. And so the people I know that do the biggest things all have this weird sense of, like, destiny, if that's the right word. And it's like, pulling me towards this bigger thing that, like, feels impossible to the thing I'm aiming at. I was too embarrassed to even say out loud for 15 years. And so I'm gradually, like, dying and resurrecting, dying, being reborn and dying. And I'm, like, tripping and stumbling my way towards this really, really big thing.

But the thing must be different. Did you know what the destiny was when you were 12? Or has it adapted as time goes on?

The only thing I knew when I was 12 is that I had a call on my life for radical generosity. That's all I knew. And what happened was I was mowing a lawn in, like, a lightning rod. And by the way, I don't, like, talk to God. There's a lot of people on TikTok. They're like, yeah, God told me this. God told me that. I talked to God.

It's like, okay, no, I'm just a 12 year old. And I just knew in my DNA God said, give all of your money away. And I only had, like, 200 bucks that I saved up, but I was excited. I was like, yes, okay, yes, I will do that. I was like, thanks for giving me, like, a task to do. That's cool. And so I told my parents. They thought I was insane.

They're like, oh, honey, you work so hard on that. I'm like, no. So I did that. And then nothing happened for, like, over a decade. Then I started getting interested in entrepreneurship, and I realized the only way to be radically generous is if you have more than enough. So then there's a business Thing. And then, by the way, I have

to step in real quick. One of the first things I ever remember about Josh, when he first approached me and we talked, we had a little Zoom meeting back when, before Zoom was cool. And he said, I just want to give shoes to kids. I think it was actually Costa Rica. I think you even said the country, but you're like, I just want to go somewhere and put shoes on kids. I remember being like, well, it's nice

to meet you too, man. That's cool.

Yeah, I have this little book sitting here somewhere. I have a little book that I made for myself. There's one copy of it, and all it is is a bunch of pictures of orphans on every page. And the words on the pages are just speaking to myself. When I feel sorry for myself, it's like, joshua, get to work. Like, God didn't call his children to poverty and, like, all this stuff to motivate me. And I'm like, okay, fine. Because most of my problems are.

Hashtag first world problems. It's like, darn it, my Corvette didn't start today. The battery died. I wish I got the white pony instead of the brown pony for Christmas. You know, it's, like, kind of lame. And when you have perspective.

But can I just ask a question about orphans? Because I too. Well, my parents were like, you're going to be a missionary when you grow up. From, like, the altar when I was born, basically. And I do kind of live my life that way and meaning I like to travel and I like to help people. But the other thing is, though I worked in orphanages, I made my way to Romania to Morocco when I was younger. That was, like, where my heart was. And I feel like I didn't know this about you. I knew that you wanted to help children, and I know that you had a big goal, but I didn't understand that that started so much younger for you.

I never talk about this stuff. That's why this podcast is cool. No one asks these questions, you know, they just ask, like, business tactical stuff, which is fun. But this is really fun because what happened to me in my early 20s, though, the next, like, lightning rod thing was I knew in my bones again, like I did when I was 12, that I'm going to give away a minimum of a hundred million dollars before I'm dead. It's not even a thought. I would have thought. It wasn't a thing. I was trying to think.

It's just this knowing. But it was embarrassing, right? Because it's dumb. Like, I can't even buy a lawnmower to push mow my trailer park grass lot, you know, like, I had nothing. So it was weird. And so I didn't even tell my wife for years. And just kind of think about it all the time and think about it like, what would need to be true for that to even be a thing. And then I started thinking I'm schizophrenic or I'm nuts. You know, you start thinking you're crazy, right? Am I crazy? I'm gonna do people that are crazy ask themselves they're crazy.

And I'm a thinker, right? And it's to the point now where it's not weird or embarrassing. It actually feels small to me because I statistically have 40 years to go, you know, unless I get hit by a bus or something. So there's like plenty of time. And I think one thing that's helped me a lot is there's a quote that says, never meet your heroes. And what that quote means is like, they're just going to disappoint you because they're totally human and they're abysmally average at most things. And you've like, put them on a pedestal. And there's good advice in that way of looking at that quote. But the other way to look at that quote is that that quote doesn't make sense.

I think you should meet your heroes because what happens is it's not about bringing them down after you meet them. It helps you understand. Wait a second. That's it?

Yeah.

That's all it takes.

Can do this, right?

Yeah.

You'll notice, like, really high achieving people, if we want to use the word better, which is a terrible descriptor. But if they're only better at a couple of things, that's it. There's like contributing factors to success and there's determining factors. So contributing is like if you get a flat tire, well, that's annoying, but it doesn't, like, determine the final outcome. You lose a client reigns on the good people and the bad people. There's that. But like, the determining factors, success are basic things. Like, they think way bigger.

Way bigger. Not a little bit, not incrementally. They think way bigger, they move way faster. And the volume of effort when they execute is just disproportionate. That's kind of it. And if those are the three determining factors that are different, when I look at people like Russell Brunson, who's mentored me for years, I'm actually doing a live challenge with Russell Brunson next month.

Really?

No one knows it. Dan Kennedy and Russell Brunson.

Wow, that's so cool.

I'm, like, working with them and the guy built a company that's done a billion dollars in sales and all this stuff. He thinks bigger, he moves faster, and his volume is not normal. Like, I didn't understand the level of volume. I just didn't understand. But anyway, if those are the determining factors for success, what I've realized is that the thing behind that is identity. Everything comes down to identity. It's who you think that you are, what you think you deserve, and frankly, it's who you think God is. Because if God is a good dad, it completely reframes your entire everything.

If God is a bloodthirsty, drunk stepdad who needs to kill something to not be mad at you. That's how I thought God was. I had, like, Dracula God syndrome. Like, it's like a view. Jesus is like the super nice guy, kind of like my big brother. And then dad, God walks in at 2am and he's like, must have beat me. And he's like. And then Jesus, like, it's okay, dad.

He's with me. And I'm like, thank you.

Did we go to the same church? I feel like that's how I viewed him too.

It's just, in my opinion, diabolically, just

because we're on this particular podcast. I think there's lots of other ways of seeing God, as I've been studying other religions too. And there's like the indifferent God and then there's the God who just needs you to constantly tout his glory. He just wants to make sure you're always telling everybody how great he is and how powerful he is.

So then we can sit on the cloud and play harps and continuously for all eternity, and then affinity loop, tell him how awesome he is the whole time.

Well, the more I've studied about the Muslim faith is like, it's really just about not having any of the gods before him and making sure that you would always credit him with everything and all power. It's really just about submitting to his power. Where Judaism is more about like, hey, let's fight, let's push against it. Like, who knows? And there's a lot of that. So it is funny you talk about the nature of God because it really does truly frame entire cultures of people.

Oh, yeah. Everything inescapably omnipresently penetrating to every part of your life, straight to your bank account, to your business, to your marriage, to your Identity, your nervous system. When you get triggered by a phrase to the way that your body physically reacts to because of a word spoken. I mean, this is a big topic because identity is kind of a catch all. Everybody just says it, but it's like, what does that even mean? And it's the whole game. Like, if you feel worthy and you think bigger, like if your identity is at a minimum place to be able to think bigger and take more action and all the stuff I said, success, it really isn't. It becomes inevitable, to be honest with you. It becomes like unreasonable that you're not successful in a big way.

When you're thinking really big and taking lots of action and being ethical and all this stuff, you can't really fail on a big enough time horizon when you behave like that. The problem is, is we never take our foot off the brake to do that because of the identity stuff.

I think you've said that to me before and I believed it, by the way, about like, it's inevitable if you think bigger and you're taking action well.

And when you meet really successful people, you know that it's inevitable because they're not that awesome. They're not. I'm not diminishing them. What I'm saying is it's my fault that I put people on a pedestal way too high. That was my own ignorance. What I didn't realize was they're painfully average at everything except a couple of things. That's it.

That's true. I feel like I have paid a lot of money to be in a lot of rooms that normally I would think I shouldn't be in this room with this person. And it started in conquer in the home service world and I've expanded well beyond that. And it's true. Every time I get into a different room, I'm like, oh, Melody, you can do bigger things. What I wonder, Josh, is like, you've watched me for years. I fight the identity. I've always felt like I was meant for bigger things, that I have a purpose.

I've always had a sense of purpose. And yet the purpose does not seem clearly defined, no matter how much work I do on it. Like, I want to help people is the purpose, but I also want to make money. And there's a line where, where I get to where that I think it's poor people mentality.

You're totally doing your purpose. You've done your purpose ever since I met you. You're the person at the event that sees a person everyone's ignoring and you're there, and you're speaking life into them. And you can't not be the thing that God made you to be. You already are that you can't escape it. You are like hand designed to be what you are. The only problem is you have a couple of agreements about what you making a certain amount of money means. Yes, that's making you play in a lower level.

But here's the thing. You're still doing your purpose in this level. You're not not doing it.

You're doing it right now.

You've always done it. It's just if you want to scale your impact, we have to identify. See, there's a concept in corporate consulting called growth through subtraction. It's not about, like, learning a new skill to be successful. It's about deleting a lie. What's the base lie? That by deleting it, it just opens up a tripling of your economic success. Still being Melody, still being what you are, but being able to amplify it and breathe a little more. There's a lie because it's not the money that you have a problem getting.

It's what you think it means when you have more than whatever range of identity you've allocated for yourself. I'm writing a book right now, too. There's this thing called identity range. And there's a reason, like, 80% of lottery winners go bankrupt if they win the lottery. And there's also a reason that even Melody, who, like, never goes all the way to make a bajillion dollars. There's a reason, though. If you get Too low in four seconds, you'll fix the problem 100%. Yes, you will go get the money, get back into range, and then settle into your little flow.

And what happens if that threshold is, I got to get $100 million to give away? Like, I got to get that money, or I've got a bunch of kids, I got to get shoes on. Like, it moves you right into that mode.

Logically. I get that. Josh, what you're saying, like, you taught me this first. This is where I learned it from. And what Curt and I have talked about with this money mindset is you say, like, scale your impact. You can't do bigger things unless you have money. So I did eventually. But again, it took me a long time to believe it.

What's frustrating is that I believe it fully now. I've been ready for the big thing, and it still isn't happening. So there's other identity lies in my life.

Maybe not.

I don't know, maybe it's still the money.

I think when you're watching yourself grow, it's like watching grass. And like, Chinese bamboo is a really good metaphor, because when you plant it, it doesn't do anything for three years, and then it grows three feet per day. And if it didn't establish deep roots, it would only have little fruits. Bamboo doesn't have fruits, but you get the analogy. Meaning it would tip over and rip out of the ground. Right. It has to go deep so it can go tall. And there's an element of that, too, right? I mean, your pain becomes your platform.

And, like, the more suffering you have, the more weaponized you are when you do help people at scale. I mean, this is important, right? Because suffering is not punishment from the angry Dracula God. I don't think at all. I totally changed my view on all that. But it kind of feels like that. It's like, why am I having all this resistance? Like, why am I blocked all the time? And sometimes you're not. You're not. You're being prepared.

Like, setbacks can be setups. Your mess becomes the message. All this stuff that you hear motivational speakers talk about, it's really true. And, like, you have all this life experience. You have deep compassion and empathy. You're the kind of person that would, like, you feel in your body the pain someone else goes through.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's amazing.

Yes. I love it. I say empathy and integrity are my worst qualities. That's my joke about business. I think I know where I want to go.

Well, you got to be careful with that, though, too. Can I, like, push back on it, or maybe I misunderstand.

Please push back on us. This is our favorite thing.

I can totally see how with the frustration you have of your business, you having that quote, it's a zinger. And it's like, it makes you feel good because it's like, yep, the reason I'm stuck is because I have empathy, integrity. But by making an agreement that that is true, you're gonna build a lattice work around this thing. And we gotta ask ourselves, is this true? Meaning, is it mutually exclusive, that you have wild success financially, or you have empathy and integrity? And I can tell you absolutely that's not true. It doesn't mean there's not massive examples of horribly narcissistic people that are successful, but maybe you just haven't met enough people that are just like you but are wildly successful, because they do exist. They're not mutually exclusive.

Do you feel like There is an ROI on integrity. An ROI in business, Is there an ROI on integrity?

It's a loaded question, depending on how what you mean.

But what do we mean? When we did that episode, what was the main point that we were talking about?

Yeah, I think we were just talking about how the idea is, is that sometimes doing the right thing hurt so bad in the short term that you almost need to sort of look down the road and be like, I'm not doing financial suicide right now by doing the right thing, am I? And I think the question that she's asking, I think you're interpreting it right based. I could already kind of see where you're going with it.

Yeah, I was thinking short term, long term. I view integrity as a principle. Just like the law. Third law of thermodynamics is a principle. Like it's immutable, which means it's not like an opinion, it's just like gravity.

Right.

So integrity unlocks things. It's inputs and outputs. If you input into your daily life integrity, things automatically happen that are good for you, but it's not an instant dopamine hit, but it compounds over time. Your relationships are different, your doors that open are different, your connections are different. The level of trust you have with everybody is different. Trust literally is a currency you can cash in on. We're in a trust recession right now because all the Internet marketers are liars or charlatans and weirdos and they've overplayed their hand. And so what's happening is people like you that have integrity doesn't mean you're perfect, but you're like, fighting to have integrity regularly.

You have this bank account of trust built up that other people don't have. And so do I think there's an ROI on it? Yeah, I think there's a huge ROI on it.

I'm going to get back to that later because I have some more questions about that, but go ahead, Curt.

I was just going to say I'm looking at the list of questions here, and I already know this is going to be a two parter. So is it okay if I just fork the conversation here and just go kind of really foundational for a minute? I know that Josh has told a story on stage a few times, and at the risk of like, making him feel like he has to tell a story forever, I want to put a little different spin on it this time. Melody and I both told our sort of spiritual stories. You've talked about how you had a vampire God that you don't believe in anymore. Or Dracula maybe said Dracula. But anyway, the point is, is that I want to know a little bit more about. You've already been dropping so many nuggets of, like, important things. Let's just talk a little bit about where you came from.

Okay? You talked about the trailer park. You talked about just somehow you're magically married to Ashley. And then you had a family and you had a window cleaning business. Tell me a little bit about your journey of maybe a little the details of what you're doing, but maybe a lot more focused on why you were doing it. Because I also know there's just part of your story where Ashley didn't want to be married to you anymore.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah. So for the sake of the sole proprietor, I would love to hear a little bit more about your journey and the whys, what was going on.

So let me tell you all of the bad things about me.

Yes, we love this. This is what we do.

All the bad things about me that I don't tell anyone ever, because it's mainly because it's irrelevant, but it's true. Just to encourage people. I'm not some unicorn that thinks big and walks around and does stuff. That's insane, right? The things I said so far in this episode are true, but it doesn't mean that I live by it every second. Truth is a spectrum. And so what it means is, is like very few people believe anything with 100% certainty. And the difference between 99% certainty and a hundred percent is not 1% difference. It's 10,000% difference.

So. Meaning it's not incremental, it's exponential. So it's like that's a whole mind bomb of a thing. But what I'm saying is I'm not like diagnosed to be like on the spectrum or anything, but I have this little add slightly touch of the TISM thing happening. I'm hyperlogical, which can be very, very bad because I can just miss things, miss body language. People say that I'm intimidating. And the first time someone told me that, I'm like, what? Because, like, my heart is like, I love people and all, but the look of my face. I might have like a RBF going on, you know, but I don't even know.

So there's that I love alcohol to a point where it's dangerous for me, and so I have to be really careful. And one of the reasons we almost got divorced in, in our 20s was really because of that. You know, I just gained all this weight. I smoked cigarettes, I Drank. I mean, I had a semi traumatic childhood from parents who loved me. Just in case they listened to this. Yes, they love me, they work hard, I love them, we have a great relationship, but all kinds of weird baggage and stuff. And because I'm a thinker, I'm just do.

The RPMs in my brain are really high. I can't turn it off. Alcohol is amazing for downshifting that thing. So that's a problem, right? I'm just open about that now. I don't smoke cigarettes anymore. I lived in the trailer park and smoked cigarettes and he drank and somehow he survived and was successful. That's impossible. No, it's not.

Who told you that? But my religious upbringing was Pentecostal. There's 40,000 denominations just in Christianity. According to one magazine article I read. It's just the most fragmented thing ever. But Pentecostals, our church was like 20 people. Almost all of them were not overweight, but obese. My parents would smoke cigarettes on the way to church and scream at each other. Not every Sunday, but that's how I remember it.

Like they're like f bombing. But then we get to church and they're like, oh, Sister Mary. And they hug each other. And then we go into the 20 person church and everyone would speak in tongues every episode. Everyone's slain in the spirit, which means like the guy hits your head and you fall back.

We went to the same church. We also spoke in the tongues. Or I tried to, I faked it.

Yeah. And then like you feel like you're bad if you can't do it. And they're like, do it, do it, do it. You're like, you know, you're trying to do it. And I can do it right now, you know, because it's programmed into my brain. Right. Oh, wow.

That actually sounded legit.

Here's the thing. My parents were good for smoking cigarettes and swearing at each other and taking me to church because they were trying to do the thing they thought was good. They were trying to be good husband and wife, mom and dad. And so there's this level up that happens generationally. And so like what I was mad at them about in my 20s as an excuse to feel like a victim. I actually honor them for. Because they didn't know anything. No one taught them anything.

None of us know anything unless you learn it. What do you do if you never learned it?

Exactly.

This identity range stuff. What the heck? So anyway, all the people in this church were also poor. All of them. Our pastor was 500 pounds and just dirt poor. And that's the guy I gave all my money to when I was 12. So then when I became older, I was like, man, you know, I just got hyper emotional and I just decided to give my money away because I got manipulated as a kid. Upon further analysis, that is not what happened to me when I was 12. But I kept wondering, what's the point of kid giving all of his 200 bucks away to some 500 pound pastor whose kids became atheists and just very, very promiscuous, let's just put it that way.

His family was a disaster, his household was a disaster, his church was a disaster. But he was trying to do the thing that was good. He's trying to do the thing right. So like, oh my God, that was the frame. And so there's a lot of fear. Eschatology, end times. Jesus coming back with his robe dipped in blood with a sword shooting out of his mouth. And like, if I say the word, can I say on this podcast, no,

you're going to hell. Now.

Shit's actually not a sport. It's an acronym for store high in transit. Google it.

Oh, of course, yes.

Manure on wooden boats. And they would sit on the floor of the boat and when they got wet, they could spontaneously combust. So anyway, it's very interesting. But anyway, like, if I say shit, better hurry and say the magic words of dear God, please forgive me, or if I get hit by a bus right before I say those words, then I'm definitely getting tortured in perpetuity for all eternity, right? And so I always felt like I'm saved and not saved. I'm saved. And that it's an exhausting. It's abuse. It's religious programming.

So I think I went through that because part of my calling, if you want to call it that, is to talk about this. And I haven't started doing it yet, but it is the major driver and why I'm doing everything that I'm doing. So when my current company is at a certain level and it's stabilized, I'm going to start talking about this a lot more. That's why I'm really excited. Because Christians or any religiously programmed person are like the hardest people to deal with in business coaching because it's like genetically baked in fear. The fear is so profound. Okay? Like, everything you do, it could be catastrophic. You say one wrong word, you have sex before you're married.

You drink one sip of wine before you're 21. Like in the list of things that you're naughty Boy, the fear is so big. And so you're trying to not fail at everything. And you can't make a lot of money in business trying to not fail. That's, like, not how it works. Business is like baseball is. Means you don't get on base seven out of 10 times. Hall of Fame baseball players have a.300 batting average.

That means they fail 70% of the time and they're the best ever. And business is more like that, you know? So, like, if we're optimizing to avoid mistakes, which is what school does to us, it's also what religion does to us. It's a really hard hill to climb to be successful in business.

Okay, first of all, we did grow up the same. Was your comic book attraction. Were you reading tracts as kid?

It was like demons coming in and.

Yes, Well, I remember those were my comic books. And I still hold on to all the stories.

You don't just hold on to them. Your nervous system holds on to them.

Yes. No, no, Legitimately. That's why it's funny when I say, like, and I think I'm going to hell for it. And I may not believe. I don't know. Because we were in a cult church, actually. We lost all of our friends. We lost all of our relationships when we left.

We had planted the church between ages 8 and 11. It was our whole life. And Charismatic leader. I know it's a cult because there's a support group in Facebook for this place. And one of the things I think about in my business life is, in a way, we have to be able to believe in the thing that we're doing. And I'm always questioning, like, reasons I'm doing things, the things that I'm doing.

Yeah, me too.

Do you.

Oh, my God. It is so hard for me to be dogmatic on anything because. Because being dogmatic is sort of dumb. And so because I'm aware of both sides of every argument, it's really hard for me to, for example, to make content. I'm not confused on how to make a viral video on Instagram. I'm not confused. Okay? I have to die on a hill of something, but it's not real to me because there's very few hills I'll die on. Like, if I wanted to make a video calling out Grant Cardone and how he's so bad for.

I can't do it because there's a whole other side to the pancake or he's just. And all this good stuff. And I know that both of those things are True. At the same time. Oh, man.

Oh, man.

Nuance, people. Humans are terrible with nuance. I told my kids, I'm like, the way society programs people to be is like this. That guy good one, that guy bad one.

Yeah. Oh, nuance does not go viral. Nuance will never go viral.

Yeah, declarative dogmatic statements go viral, especially if they're controversial. Yeah, I could do it there to dogmatic statement, like the sky is blue. That's not going viral. But if it's controversial. Right.

Go eat the sun.

You taught us all of this, Josh, but you forgot to mention that you also struggle with this.

Oh, big time. Big time.

That's probably part of it. Is like, when I was in your group for that year, I learned so much. I learned all the things I'd ever wanted to know about marketing. And I want to say you really were ahead of the time. Like, I don't know where you came from, but you always were ahead. And I was always very resistant. But eventually I'm very stubborn. I have a lot of grit.

I come along, but I'm like, five years later. Right. My brain takes a while to catch up, but it gets there. But I feel like if maybe if I had known that you were internally struggling because I decided, because I didn't feel that commitment, that, like, confidence that I could foresee in you or in other people that I couldn't quite believe. Does that make sense?

Oh, it does. I should have been way more vulnerable. I mean, the new company I have, which the genesis, the first thing of it was the group you were in, but that was the first thing in a brick wall that I'm building over here. We haven't even tried to really establish and scale yet. But no, I wasn't vulnerable because it was risky. It was scary. It was like I'm trying to pull a string and I'm trying to figure stuff out, and there's, like, reasons why I did that group. And that was leading to a second thing, to a third thing.

And I'm trying to figure it out, but I'm also, like, moved my family to Texas, spent a lot of money, did all this stuff, and it might look stupid. And so I don't want to be vulnerable to after I have success with this new thing, you know? And so there's the same stuff going on in my head, which probably prevented me from being hyper transparent about this type of stuff. Right. I have to be strong. I have to be that this stuff's not true. And even though I know it's not true, we do this stuff subconsciously. So I show up to the coaching call. I'm going to teach a magical principle.

I teach the magical principle. I do it with great enthusiasm because it's authentic to me. But I totally leave out the other stuff that might be more of an unlock for someone than the magic principle because of all my own stuff.

I wonder if I'm an anomaly, though. For instance, because Curt and I had to start a podcast to have the conversations that we're having right now because we couldn't talk to people about these kinds of things, right? So we started this, and that's why we do it, so we can have these kinds of conversations. And I feel like it would have unlocked a lot for me because I would have understood, oh, his brain is the same as my brain right now. I don't have to make my brain better or something. Like, I don't have to reach a different level. I looked at confidence, and this is unconscious, by the way. I have to work through it. But I believed I would be confident when I knew everything I needed to know, and then I would feel the feeling of confidence, and then I'd have it, because everybody else who has confidence just really believes in what they know.

Because I'm looking from surface. The behind the scenes for me would have been huge. And there was one time at the huge convention where you were alone for some reason, which almost never happened, you were having a drink at the bar. So maybe you're a little more open with me. And you really were very open with me because I asked you. I took that opportunity to ask you all the deep questions I wanted to understand.

I remember that.

And I appreciated that conversation because I'm always trying to figure out what's the truth, but I don't know if there is a truth. You know what I mean?

There is. We can talk about that next. But let's go to confidence for a second. Confidence is not a derivative of knowledge.

I know that now.

Get it from there, right? It's like a lizard's not going to have a baby chicken. It's, like, impossible, right? So, like, confidence is a derivative of evidence. So this is the paradox of, like, leveling up with anything is there is no way around this. You have to do actual things that 2.0 melody would do, and you have to do enough of it while feeling absolutely nothing. This is why it feels like death. Okay? You have to. Taylor Welch calls it holding the pose. Okay? Meaning, like, you have to hold the pose.

You could say fake it till you make it, but I think that's way less sophisticated than what I mean by what I'm talking about.

Yeah. Yeah.

You have to hold the pose and do actual things that your nervous system is screaming about for long enough for it to be less sucky and then slightly less sucky, and then just who you are. Because there's a ledger in our brains with all the evidence. I actually think everyone's already fully confident. I don't think people have a lack of confidence. I think they have inverted confidence. Like, I'm 100% sure. I'm certain based on the evidence that I've logged. I'm a hundred percent sure that I am not lovable.

So I'm going to treat my body this way. I'm 100% sure that I'm not worthy of financial success. So you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

People actually have certainty, sort of a version of certainty all the time. It's just. It's negative. It's like my friend Myron golden, who I look up to a lot. I just was in Boise with him, like, two weeks ago, and all these fancy people, and he's got millions of followers, and. But I knew him when he had 4,000 followers, and he was the same guy then. And we. I have an ongoing joke with him because he was so talented.

He's such a gifted speaker. Right. Not everyone will agree with his theology, even me. But I also have a very eclectic friend group because I don't really care what people's theology is. I care about, like, them. Like, I can see who people are. It's one of my gifts. I can see who people really are.

And it's frustrating for me to watch them not do what, to me is like, two plus two equals four. And I'm not wrong. I can see it. So I see Myron, and that gift is activated. And I'm like, you are a freaking thing. You are a thing. You know, he has videos now with over 100 million views. It's crazy.

So I'm like, why doesn't everyone know you? Let's whiteboard it out. Let's strategize it. What are the tactics? Blah, blah. And he would never let me do it. He goes. I know. He goes, josh, it'll happen when it happens. And I hated that answer.

He's just like, no, it'll happen. When it happened. He just kept saying that to me. And then it happened. And I'm like, what was that? You know, because I watch it. So now when I see him, I'm like, hey, Myron, I think. I think it happened. Okay.

He's like, it's crazy. But what he was doing was holding the pose. His nervous system, Melody, was. If it already happened at the time he was telling me, it will happen when it happened.

That's awesome.

He had no sense of. Lack of. He didn't need anything to do anything because he already won and there was nowhere to get in his mind. Okay. That doesn't mean he didn't do stuff. He'd still make videos and he'd do the thing, but he had this, like, peace. I mean, you go to Chipotle with this guy and he has so much certainty and not arrogance, because arrogance and confidence look similar to the untrained eye. But no, he's just very him.

Ooh, just gloss right over that one.

Yeah, you did.

Yeah, go ahead.

People that are newer in business, like, they misinterpret confident people for arrogant people. They're just confused because they're ignorant. I don't mean that disrespectfully. They just don't know.

No, it's truth. Yeah.

Both directions. You can think that someone who's arrogant is confident and someone who's confident is arrogant. It really can go both ways.

Yes. But Myron's. Interesting to go back to your thing of holding the pose and confidence and all this stuff. It's like, that's why I don't, like, fake it to make it. Because if faking make it, you feel like a fraud the whole time you're doing it. Holding the pose, isn't that. Think of holding the pose more like method acting, fully embodying the 2.0 version of yourself. Even though there's a little weird butterfly in your stomach, there's a little bit of that.

There's a little. It's like, what are you doing? That's not who you are. That's why when I first started public speaking, I got a special watch that I only wore when I get on stage. I am like a paralyzing introvert, believe it or not. Even though I have a motor mouth here, I don't want to public speak ever. Like, I would live in the woods by myself with books and be happy. But I can't do the thing that I know I was meant to do unless I learn these additional skills. And the only way I can learn those skills is if a part of me dies and I kill a lie and replace it with new evidence.

Right. So, like, I'm not scared to public speak now because I've done it literally hundreds of times. And probably the first 50 times, I wanted to physically puke. For real, like, puke. Oh, yeah. I know that you do so much volume, it becomes unreasonable that you don't level up. And there comes a point. I don't know if it was the 51st time.

Somewhere between that and the 150th time, where it's like, not a big deal anymore most of the time, you know?

What was the idea of the watch?

The watch is called a totem. There's a book called the Alter Ego Effect. And I heard this somewhere. And basically, it's a physical object that's symbolic of this 2.0 version of you. Because I believe there's a version of Melody that's already in her. She doesn't need to create it. She doesn't need to learn it. She doesn't need to practice it.

It already is true in there as a version where she could walk into a boardroom of a Fortune 500 company, give a presentation, get a standing ovation, and sign a $125 million contract. That version already is there. So if she wore a different shirt or if you do your hairstyle different and you pretend it's a Persona.

Yeah.

Sit in the reality of that being true. Just like Leonardo DiCaprio method acted when he played in Django. Right. Have you ever watched Django? That movie? It's crazy. Django Unchained is wild, but he was a slave owner. And his way of acting is like he becomes the character. Even when filming stops, he still stays the character for, like, nine months until they're done. It can make you psychologically messed up doing this.

But that's why he's so good. So Jamie Foxx is the black guy that was the main slave in this movie. And Leo is like, this. The most piece of crap human you could ever. He's so evil in this show. But when they started filming, before he had slipped into character, he told Jamie Foxx. He's like, I just feel weird because that movie broke the record on how many times they said the N word in it for a movie.

Yeah.

No. And Leo was like, man, I just feel weird. And Jamie Foxx said, I don't understand the problem. I'm your property. Meaning, like, you own me. And said from that moment, Leonardo DiCapro never talked to him again until filming was completely done for the movie. Because he slipped in, he locked it in, he held the pose through the whole shooting of the movie and he crushed it. It's amazing.

Movie do that next time. You got to go Facebook Live. Marketing, Right.

I actually do that. And I do believe what you just said. And I think I'm in the growth. There's like this weird period I'm in right now where I am coming way more into myself because I only want to be myself. And I know that there's power in that.

There's versions of yourself. There's a 2.0, the 3.0, the 7.0.

But I believe that the thing that I think that I do, that you do, that Curt has done probably like. Do you know the first time I ever publicly spoke was at the first Conquer Summit. And I won that.

Yeah.

10 minute thing because I spoke about how to have a purpose driven business.

I was in Lake Tahoe.

Right, Lake Tahoe, yeah. That was the first time I ever spoke publicly. But because I was so terrified of doing it, I had to do it. And so I have that thing inside of me where I want to overcome all the time.

You're doing it correct. I bet the problem is it's the latency in between moments like that. So remember I said, think bigger, move faster and more volume. So you're doing everything correct and it will work. It can't not work. The problem is, why do we want to take six years if we can take six months? So if you did that every day, okay, the thing that makes one of you, if you did it once a day, I don't know if it's the 82nd time when it locks in, but it will happen. It can't not happen. This is how our neural programming works.

So it's like if you're holding the pose and doing it, you just do it and don't stop. And if you want to puke, it doesn't matter. Because it doesn't matter how hard it is. Only matters if it's worth it. And it does worth it. Because if for you to be empathetic, compassionate, ethical, melody at a higher level, you have to do this more volume. So you just keep doing it, keep doing it. And you wake up one day and you're like, I'm kind of good at this and I didn't feel weird.

Thanks, everybody for joining us at the Sole Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many other others. If you want to engage with us at our website and maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear on the podcast, feel free to go to soleproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.